[OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
Hi all, I would like to know how people are using the tag name and/or operator. It was obvious for me that operator might come as an additional attribute but it seems that the wiki is suggesting to replace name by operator. Or at least, it's questionning on the page about amenity=bank: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbank where the section "tags to use in combination" suggests 'operator' but the template says 'name=*', 'operator=*'. Then now the question : how can we determin if we use 'name' or 'operator' if it is one or the other ? e.g. restaurants or hotel might or might not be part of a chain, thus might be tagged with 'name' or 'operator'. Shall know the door to ask ? Or can I restore the tag 'name' in the wiki as it was till january 2009 ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On 13 July 2010 06:25, Pieren wrote: > Then now the question : how can we determin if we use 'name' or 'operator' > if it is one or the other ? e.g. restaurants or hotel might or might not be > part of a chain, thus might be tagged with 'name' or 'operator'. Shall know > the door to ask ? name v operator is simple for restaurants in western countries since the official business name=* will be on the health certificate issued by what ever government department is in charge of public health and safety. Where as the operator=* tag is usually on the sign board out the front the restaurant... Obviously other places of business will have official name=* but the business certificate probably wouldn't need to be on display like health certifications... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:40 PM, John Smith wrote: > On 13 July 2010 06:25, Pieren wrote: > Shall know the door to ask ? > rectify : knock > > name v operator is simple for restaurants in western countries since > the official business name=* will be on the health certificate issued > by what ever government department is in charge of public health and > safety. Where as the operator=* tag is usually on the sign board out > the front the restaurant... Obviously other places of business will > have official name=* but the business certificate probably wouldn't > need to be on display like health certifications... > I would say the exact opposite. The tag 'name' is what you see on the facade. The (optional) tag 'operator' is the name of the chain but we should not suggest to not use 'name' otherwise we will have different tagging when restaurants/hotels are part or not of a chain. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On 13 July 2010 06:59, Pieren wrote: > I would say the exact opposite. The tag 'name' is what you see on the > facade. The (optional) tag 'operator' is the name of the chain but we should > not suggest to not use 'name' otherwise we will have different tagging when > restaurants/hotels are part or not of a chain. No according to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-12 13:25, Pieren wrote: I would like to know how people are using the tag name and/or operator. I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets where I believe it is incorrect. For gas stations, the name of the supplying oil company would be properly described as the "brand" (e.g. Shell, Mobil). If someone asked me for the "operator" of the station, I would take this to be synonymous with "owner", and it would be unlikely to know who it is (or care) unless I knew them personally, or went there often and saw their name repeated on my credit card statement. I'd like to tag: brand=Shell name="Bob Smith Auto" (if I happen to know it) operator=* would be redundant unless it were a third party. Note that despite not being documented, "brand" is one of the keys in which JOSM looks for a name to render (after name:xx, name, int_name, ref, and operator). The renderers do not, but I believe should, if we can agree on its use. Similarly, while a hotel might be called "Ocala Marriott", it is likely that it is owned and operated by something like "AQV Hospitality, LLC" under a license/franchise agreement. I would like to tag: name="Ocala Marriott" brand=Marriott operator="AQV Hospitality, LLC" (if I happen to know it) Another example would be new car dealers: name="Fletcher Jones Motorcars" brand=Mercedes It was obvious for me that operator might come as an additional attribute but it seems that the wiki is suggesting to replace name by operator. Or at least, it's questionning on the page about amenity=bank: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbank I would tag name=*. operator and brand would seem redundant (in the US at least). ref could be used for the branch name and/or number. -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
I've been using the operator tag for library branches (where name is the branch name, and operator is the library system). Same could be done with schools within a school district. Does this seem like a reasonable use for the operator tag? Side note: John, Do you seriously check health certificates before tagging restaurants? On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:40 PM, John Smith wrote: > On 13 July 2010 06:25, Pieren wrote: >> Then now the question : how can we determin if we use 'name' or 'operator' >> if it is one or the other ? e.g. restaurants or hotel might or might not be >> part of a chain, thus might be tagged with 'name' or 'operator'. Shall know >> the door to ask ? > > name v operator is simple for restaurants in western countries since > the official business name=* will be on the health certificate issued > by what ever government department is in charge of public health and > safety. Where as the operator=* tag is usually on the sign board out > the front the restaurant... Obviously other places of business will > have official name=* but the business certificate probably wouldn't > need to be on display like health certifications... > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On 13 July 2010 07:25, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > Side note: John, Do you seriously check health certificates before > tagging restaurants? I don't usually tag name, just operator, I just mentioned that to point out the name is easy to locate if people did want to tag it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On 13 July 2010 07:18, Alan Mintz wrote: > I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets > where I believe it is incorrect. This is an argument over the use of english as a language and tags that look like english words and how people interrupt them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
If you look at the history of the page this change was made on the morning of 1st of April by someone who doesn't appear to have an entry. I suspect it might just be sabotage, it does happen occasionally on wikis. Cheerio John On 12 July 2010 16:25, Pieren wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to know how people are using the tag name and/or operator. It > was obvious for me that operator might come as an additional attribute but > it seems that the wiki is suggesting to replace name by operator. Or at > least, it's questionning on the page about amenity=bank: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbank > > where the section "tags to use in combination" suggests 'operator' but the > template says 'name=*', 'operator=*'. > Then now the question : how can we determin if we use 'name' or 'operator' > if it is one or the other ? e.g. restaurants or hotel might or might not be > part of a chain, thus might be tagged with 'name' or 'operator'. Shall know > the door to ask ? > Or can I restore the tag 'name' in the wiki as it was till january 2009 ? > > Pieren > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
The usage of "operator" documented in the wiki is the opposite of the standard usage, at least in the food service business (I once worked for a food broker). The standard usage would be to say that a restaurant's name is "Smithville Waffle House", for instance, it is a franchise of "Waffle House", and it is operated by "XYZ Food Services". The franchise name is the one you would most likely render on a map. The average consumer would have no reason to be interested in the operator's name unless they needed to talk to management about a problem of some sort. -------Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator >From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Mon Jul 12 16:31:18 America/Chicago 2010 On 13 July 2010 07:25, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > Side note: John, Do you seriously check health certificates before > tagging restaurants? I don't usually tag name, just operator, I just mentioned that to point out the name is easy to locate if people did want to tag it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:40 PM, John Smith wrote: > name v operator is simple for restaurants in western countries since > the official business name=* will be on the health certificate issued > by what ever government department is in charge of public health and > safety. Where as the operator=* tag is usually on the sign board out > the front the restaurant... Obviously other places of business will > have official name=* but the business certificate probably wouldn't > need to be on display like health certifications... That's back to front, as Pieren has said. The name is the visible name of the restaurant, not the name of the corporation that runs the restaurant. The operator, as explained on the wiki, is the name of the company that runs the restaurant, not the name of the restaurant. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-12 14:31, John Smith wrote: On 13 July 2010 07:25, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > Side note: John, Do you seriously check health certificates before > tagging restaurants? I don't usually tag name, just operator, I just mentioned that to point out the name is easy to locate if people did want to tag it. Is operator correct, though? Many well-known chains are franchises, where the actual operator is a company or individual that is named on the business license or health certificate. To use a (hopefully) internationally-known chain of sandwich shops, if you tag operator=Subway, you are saying that Subway operates the restaurant, which is incorrect. Subway rents use of their brand name and collective advertising for 12.5% of the gross sales, and may also act as a vendor for some or all of the supplies, but the owner/operator of the restaurant is someone else. -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Pieren wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to know how people are using the tag name and/or operator. It > was obvious for me that operator might come as an additional attribute but > it seems that the wiki is suggesting to replace name by operator. Or at > least, it's questionning on the page about amenity=bank: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbank (In English the word "bank" can mean both a banking company and a building which banking companies serve customers. A 'branch' is one particular bank building). Banks seem like a bit of a special case, since people expect the map to display only the name of the banking company. The name should be the name of the particular branch something like "HSBC Putney" or "Santander Hounslow" or whatever that branch is called, but I don't think many people do that and it's not really that important. The operator would be the name of the company in any case. > where the section "tags to use in combination" suggests 'operator' but the > template says 'name=*', 'operator=*'. > Then now the question : how can we determin if we use 'name' or 'operator' > if it is one or the other ? e.g. restaurants or hotel might or might not be > part of a chain, thus might be tagged with 'name' or 'operator'. Shall know > the door to ask ? > Or can I restore the tag 'name' in the wiki as it was till january 2009 ? In every case the restaurant or the hotel should be tagged with the name of that restaurant or hotel, which is usually displayed on the outside of the building. If the name of the company which operates the hotel is also known, then it should be added as the operator. I've updated the wiki page on operator to make this clearer. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-12 14:35, John Smith wrote: On 13 July 2010 07:18, Alan Mintz wrote: > I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets > where I believe it is incorrect. This is an argument over the use of english as a language and tags that look like english words and how people interrupt them. While OSM certainly has some of these, I don't believe that is the case here. I believe the meaning of the word operator is clearly the same in both en-us and en-uk, and that using it as currently defined is completely incorrect. -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On 13 July 2010 08:51, Alan Mintz wrote: > Is operator correct, though? Many well-known chains are franchises, where > the actual operator is a company or individual that is named on the business > license or health certificate. The confusion has probably come about from usage on ATMs then being expanded to other usages... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
There is a "franchise" tag listed on the wiki. It is a proposed tag, not yet voted on. So, the name tag would have the name of this location of the business, the franchise tag (if present) would have the name of the chain, and operator would have the name of the company or individual operating this particular location. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator >From :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net Date :Mon Jul 12 17:51:04 America/Chicago 2010 At 2010-07-12 14:31, John Smith wrote: >On 13 July 2010 07:25, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > > Side note: John, Do you seriously check health certificates before > > tagging restaurants? > >I don't usually tag name, just operator, I just mentioned that to >point out the name is easy to locate if people did want to tag it. Is operator correct, though? Many well-known chains are franchises, where the actual operator is a company or individual that is named on the business license or health certificate. To use a (hopefully) internationally-known chain of sandwich shops, if you tag operator=Subway, you are saying that Subway operates the restaurant, which is incorrect. Subway rents use of their brand name and collective advertising for 12.5% of the gross sales, and may also act as a vendor for some or all of the supplies, but the owner/operator of the restaurant is someone else. -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 6:56 AM, Andy Allan wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Pieren wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I would like to know how people are using the tag name and/or operator.
> It
> > was obvious for me that operator might come as an additional attribute
> but
> > it seems that the wiki is suggesting to replace name by operator. Or at
> > least, it's questionning on the page about amenity=bank:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbank
>
> (In English the word "bank" can mean both a banking company and a
> building which banking companies serve customers. A 'branch' is one
> particular bank building).
>
> Banks seem like a bit of a special case, since people expect the map
> to display only the name of the banking company. The name should be
> the name of the particular branch something like "HSBC Putney" or
> "Santander Hounslow" or whatever that branch is called, but I don't
> think many people do that and it's not really that important. The
> operator would be the name of the company in any case.
>
In my country, we also use a branch=* tag to separate the name of the bank
(e.g. "Banco de Oro") or fast food or restaurant name ("McDonald's") from
the branch name. It's often enough to display just the name (as above) on
the map and the renderer or other tool has the flexible option to append the
branch name if it's needed or if there's is enough space to display it.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Alan Mintz wrote: > At 2010-07-12 14:35, John Smith wrote: > >On 13 July 2010 07:18, Alan Mintz wrote: > > > I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets > > > where I believe it is incorrect. > > > >This is an argument over the use of english as a language and tags > >that look like english words and how people interrupt them. > > While OSM certainly has some of these, I don't believe that is the case > here. I believe the meaning of the word operator is clearly the same in > both en-us and en-uk, and that using it as currently defined is completely > incorrect. > I agree with Alan. I had a lot of difficulty understanding what was meant by "operator", now I just fill it in as if it were "name of franchise" or "brand". It was not the best choice of English word to start with, but we are probably stuck with it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
So, if we continue to use "operator" to mean "chain or franchise", then what tag do you propose should hold the name of the individual or company who operates the business, and who is referred to in non-OSM terminology as the operator? ---Original Email------- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator >From :mailto:ed...@billiau.net Date :Mon Jul 12 19:02:22 America/Chicago 2010 On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Alan Mintz wrote: > At 2010-07-12 14:35, John Smith wrote: > >On 13 July 2010 07:18, Alan Mintz wrote: > > > I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets > > > where I believe it is incorrect. > > > >This is an argument over the use of english as a language and tags > >that look like english words and how people interrupt them. > > While OSM certainly has some of these, I don't believe that is the case > here. I believe the meaning of the word operator is clearly the same in > both en-us and en-uk, and that using it as currently defined is completely > incorrect. > I agree with Alan. I had a lot of difficulty understanding what was meant by "operator", now I just fill it in as if it were "name of franchise" or "brand". It was not the best choice of English word to start with, but we are probably stuck with it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
John Smith wrote: On 13 July 2010 06:59, Pieren wrote: I would say the exact opposite. The tag 'name' is what you see on the facade. The (optional) tag 'operator' is the name of the chain but we should not suggest to not use 'name' otherwise we will have different tagging when restaurants/hotels are part or not of a chain. No according to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator As others have pointed out, 'brand' may be a better choice of 'name' in some cases, but in reality there are THREE possible tags in many of these cases. For example name=the fancy hotel brand=best western operator=the local best western franchise Our local supermarket is a budgens but ... brand=budgens operator=Guy Warner Group In this case the 'name' might be 'Guy Warner Budgens' as appears on the local sign. petrol stations and other 'franchise' type operations will have the same more complex relations ... BUT for example, I have a 'fast fuel' fuel card which can be used at any Texaco garage, but the operator of those garages may not be Texaco, so should I be adding a 'fastfuel'=yes tag or brand=Texaco to identify this ... Just another piece of the branding jigsaw. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
Lester Caine wrote: petrol stations and other 'franchise' type operations will have the same more complex relations ... BUT for example, I have a 'fast fuel' fuel card which can be used at any Texaco garage, but the operator of those garages may not be Texaco, so should I be adding a 'fastfuel'=yes tag or brand=Texaco to identify this ... Just another piece of the branding jigsaw. It gets even worse - the name on the sign might be 'Big Corner Texaco' but it's also 'Texaco #123456', etc. (All that stuff, including operator, is posted on a window next to the main door, at least all the fuel stations I've been to) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-12 23:45, Lester Caine wrote: ... As others have pointed out, 'brand' may be a better choice of 'name' in some cases, but in reality there are THREE possible tags in many of these cases. For example name=the fancy hotel brand=best western operator=the local best western franchise In case we want to include the franchise tag in whatever we come up with here, I'd like to pick a small nit. The "franchise" is the actual license or right granted to the "franchisee" (e.g. Bob Smith dba The Fancy Hotel) by the "franchisor" (e.g. Best Western Hotels). Personally, I think "franchise" is un-necessary, since name, brand, and operator seem to clearly identify the roles of each name/person/company in the examples we've talked about, not to mention that the relationship may not necessarily or technically be a franchise, and this would be near impossible to determine casually. Our local supermarket is a budgens but ... brand=budgens operator=Guy Warner Group In this case the 'name' might be 'Guy Warner Budgens' as appears on the local sign. petrol stations and other 'franchise' type operations will have the same more complex relations ... BUT for example, I have a 'fast fuel' fuel card which can be used at any Texaco garage, but the operator of those garages may not be Texaco, so should I be adding a 'fastfuel'=yes tag or brand=Texaco to identify this ... Just another piece of the branding jigsaw. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-13 00:06, Alex S. wrote: It gets even worse - the name on the sign might be 'Big Corner Texaco' but it's also 'Texaco #123456', etc. (All that stuff, including operator, is posted on a window next to the main door, at least all the fuel stations I've been to) name="Big Corner Texaco" brand=Texaco ref=123456 operator="Bob Smith" -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
Alan Mintz wrote: At 2010-07-12 23:45, Lester Caine wrote: ... As others have pointed out, 'brand' may be a better choice of 'name' in some cases, but in reality there are THREE possible tags in many of these cases. For example name=the fancy hotel brand=best western operator=the local best western franchise In case we want to include the franchise tag in whatever we come up with here, I'd like to pick a small nit. The "franchise" is the actual license or right granted to the "franchisee" (e.g. Bob Smith dba The Fancy Hotel) by the "franchisor" (e.g. Best Western Hotels). Personally, I think "franchise" is un-necessary, since name, brand, and operator seem to clearly identify the roles of each name/person/company in the examples we've talked about, not to mention that the relationship may not necessarily or technically be a franchise, and this would be near impossible to determine casually. When one starts to look at 'McDonalds', 'KFC' and 'Burger King' then while they are franchises, the name is the 'brand', but a group of 'McDonalds' may well be operated by a single local business ... certainly overseas. This all just relates to how we search for things, and so simply standarising on the 'brand' makes perfect sense? I'm looking for a 'best western' hotel or a 'KFC' so search looks up all the local POI with that brand ? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 08:41:21AM +0100, Lester Caine wrote: > When one starts to look at 'McDonalds', 'KFC' and 'Burger King' then while > they > are franchises, the name is the 'brand', but a group of 'McDonalds' may well > be > operated by a single local business ... certainly overseas. This all just > relates to how we search for things, and so simply standarising on the > 'brand' > makes perfect sense? I'm looking for a 'best western' hotel or a 'KFC' so > search > looks up all the local POI with that brand ? Why not reusing the existing 'network' tag for the 'brand'? Though, I may be biased by Polish language where we use our 'network' equivalent the way 'chain' is used in English (e.g. for restaurants). Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 07:45 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
> > On 13 July 2010 06:59, Pieren wrote:
> >> I would say the exact opposite. The tag 'name' is what you see on the
> >> facade. The (optional) tag 'operator' is the name of the chain but we
> >> should
> >> not suggest to not use 'name' otherwise we will have different tagging when
> >> restaurants/hotels are part or not of a chain.
> >
> > No according to the wiki:
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator
>
> As others have pointed out, 'brand' may be a better choice of 'name' in some
> cases, but in reality there are THREE possible tags in many of these cases.
> For
> example
> name=the fancy hotel
> brand=best western
> operator=the local best western franchise
Thinking from an end-user point of view, Im more likely to be looking
for 'Best Western' than 'Bob Jones's Motel Franchise' or 'McDonalds'
rather than 'Janes Restaurant Group, trading as McDonalds'. As an end
user, I think youd care about the brand/operator (McDonalds), then the
name ("McDonalds Smithtown"), then the franchise details ('ABC
Restaurants T/A McDonalds').
> Our local supermarket is a budgens but ...
> brand=budgens
> operator=Guy Warner Group
> In this case the 'name' might be 'Guy Warner Budgens' as appears on the local
> sign.
But, if youre visiting an area, youre more likely to search for a
'Bugdens' than search for 'Guy Warners store'.
> petrol stations and other 'franchise' type operations will have the same more
> complex relations ... BUT for example, I have a 'fast fuel' fuel card which
> can
> be used at any Texaco garage, but the operator of those garages may not be
> Texaco, so should I be adding a 'fastfuel'=yes tag or brand=Texaco to
> identify
> this ... Just another piece of the branding jigsaw.
If the big logo on the sign out the front says Texasco, then that should
be the operator.
David
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:34 AM, David Murn wrote:
> >
> > As others have pointed out, 'brand' may be a better choice of 'name' in
> some
> > cases, but in reality there are THREE possible tags in many of these
> cases. For
> > example
> > name=the fancy hotel
> > brand=best western
> > operator=the local best western franchise
>
> Thinking from an end-user point of view, Im more likely to be looking
> for 'Best Western' than 'Bob Jones's Motel Franchise' or 'McDonalds'
> rather than 'Janes Restaurant Group, trading as McDonalds'. As an end
> user, I think youd care about the brand/operator (McDonalds), then the
> name ("McDonalds Smithtown"), then the franchise details ('ABC
> Restaurants T/A McDonalds').
>
>
Perhaps as 'end user'. But we have to think about 'contributors' and
'newbies' and today it's really really over complicated if we use sometimes
'name' and sometimes 'operator' or 'brand' or 'network' depending if you tag
an hotel, a restaurant or a bank. We have to fix simple rules for tagging !
The average contributor does not care about name/brand/operator, they just
want to map what they see on the ground as simple as possible.
The tag 'name' was easy to use last year and since then, some people try to
replace it by 'operator' (at least for banks on the wiki) and I think it's a
mistake. I see this now on my area where people tag banks with operator only
because it is suggested like that in the wiki. But in older contributions
it's the tag 'name' and we have now this mess.
I just looked quickly the latest JOSM presets and it's not better. Many
presets ask for a name and equally an operator, not saying which one is more
important and which one is optional. But amenity=fuel is clearly asking
'operator' and optionaly a name. And restaurant or fast_food preset is just
asking a name, not an 'operator'.
I would really appreciate if we can agree that, as a mapper, we always tag
the name displayed on the front of any
building/business/amenity/restaurant/bank/hotel/etc with the tag 'name' and
possibly extend - as an option - with the tag
operator/network/brand/branch/franchise.
Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
I'm not sure an operator or a brand tag helps. Surely it's about different names people call things. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/298272351 I'd advise using loc_name (The Randolph) or alt_name (Randolph Hotel) if you ask for directions. I'd probably prefer name=Randolph Hotel alt_name=Macdonalds Randolph Hotel full_name=Macdonalds Randolph Hotel loc_name=The Randolph but I don't think it would be helpful to put operator=Macdonalds Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
* David Murn [2010-07-13 18:34 +1000]: > If the big logo on the sign out the front says Texasco, then that should > be the operator. No, if the big sign says Texaco, than the name should at least include "Texaco". But that particular Texaco is being operated by someone else (i.e. not the global Texaco corporation), so the person or company that owns and operates that Texaco location is what should go in the operator field. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- If your advisors ask, "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?" do not proceed until you have a response that satisfies them. -- Evil Overlord's Handbook, entry 61 --- -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
At 2010-07-13 01:34, David Murn wrote: If the big logo on the sign out the front says Texasco, then that should be the operator. That's exactly wrong, though, if it is not a Texaco-owned/operated station, and this can be hard to determine by casual observation. There needs to be a place to put the obvious brand name of what is sold there (Texaco, Subway, Mercedes), which is what most people care about, that is separate from the ownership of the station (e.g. Bob Smith), which most people don't know/care about, that may also be separate from the name of the business (e.g. Bob's Auto Service). -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
2010/7/12 Alan Mintz : > For gas stations, the name of the supplying oil company would be properly > described as the "brand" (e.g. Shell, Mobil). If someone asked me for the > "operator" of the station, I would take this to be synonymous with "owner", > and it would be unlikely to know who it is (or care) unless I knew them > personally, or went there often and saw their name repeated on my credit > card statement. I'd like to tag: +1 use operator for the operator ;-), in case of a franchise this is typically not the name of the brand. Use name for the name and brand for the brand. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Andy Allan wrote: > > Banks seem like a bit of a special case, since people expect the map > to display only the name of the banking company. The name should be > the name of the particular branch something like "HSBC Putney" or > "Santander Hounslow" or whatever that branch is called, but I don't > think many people do that and it's not really that important. The > operator would be the name of the company in any case. > > Is that okay if I modify the wiki page about 'bank' and re-introduce the tag 'name' for the branch name (or the company if it is unknown) and 'operator' as an option ? It is more complying with the older definition. Also in the wiki about 'operator', we should clarify what to do in case the name of the specific object is unknow but just the brand (like HSBC or McDonald's) and what to do when the name and operator are the same. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
