[OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[NL]

This isn't a formal proposal so much as presenting an idea. When i was
booking a hotel recently for travel, a friend who knew the area advised me
that it was a dangerous neighborhood. That allowed me to find a different
hotel in a safer area and possibly save myself some unpleasantness. This
kind of word-of-mouth knowledge is the kind of thing open projects can excel
at providing. The problem, of course, is a metric for something as
subjective as "dangerous neighborhood". It it dangerous at 12:00 or at
01:00? Is it unsafe to park a bike/car there?

Would some tagging system to indicate dangerous area be desirable, and how
would it best be implemented?

Cheers
P
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Russ Nelson]

On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:42 PM, NL wrote:

>  Is it unsafe to park a bike/car there?

We should mark areas of high bicycle theft, but we'd need a map to  
display it.

--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
boundary area.

Cheers

Andy


>-Original Message-
>From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
>boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of NL
>Sent: 30 March 2009 3:42 AM
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas
>
>This isn't a formal proposal so much as presenting an idea. When i was
>booking a hotel recently for travel, a friend who knew the area advised me
>that it was a dangerous neighborhood. That allowed me to find a different
>hotel in a safer area and possibly save myself some unpleasantness. This
>kind of word-of-mouth knowledge is the kind of thing open projects can
>excel at providing. The problem, of course, is a metric for something as
>subjective as "dangerous neighborhood". It it dangerous at 12:00 or at
>01:00? Is it unsafe to park a bike/car there?
>
>Would some tagging system to indicate dangerous area be desirable, and how
>would it best be implemented?
>
>Cheers
>P


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

Actually, I think this is a bad idea. Wether or not an area is "dangerous"
is highly subjective, and will most likely result in heated edit wars.

2009/3/30 Russ Nelson 

>
> On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:42 PM, NL wrote:
>
> >  Is it unsafe to park a bike/car there?
>
> We should mark areas of high bicycle theft, but we'd need a map to
> display it.
>
> --
> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM -
> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Bernt Marius Johnsen
"Melius vivit qui remigat"
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Monday 30 March 2009 14:25:46 Bernt M. Johnsen wrote:
> Actually, I think this is a bad idea. Wether or not an area is "dangerous"
> is highly subjective, and will most likely result in heated edit wars.

and possibly defamation/libel suits
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Lunes, 30 de Marzo de 2009, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) escribió:
> This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
> opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
> boundary area.

I don't think OSM is the place for statistics... it has been said over and 
over "map what is on the ground".

So, I'd either go and start up OpenCrimeDensityMap, or put that info in 
Wikitravel.

Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Error 941 -  CPU not found...


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Ciarán Mooney]

> There are many areas that nearly everyone agrees is unsafe, even the
> residents.

But not all the residents would have the same opinion.

> But more importantly, there is a reasonable amount of subjective stuff in
> OSM already e.g. permissive footways across vacant land, residential vs.
> living_street

This is different to your statement above because even though a path
may not be official, I could take a person to it. Point at it, ask the
question "Is that a path?", and get the response "Yes", every time.
Regardless if your allowed to walk on it or not, it is still a path.

Ciarán

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Monday 30 March 2009 16:59:25 Ciarán Mooney wrote:
> > There are many areas that nearly everyone agrees is unsafe, even the
> > residents.
>
> But not all the residents would have the same opinion.

especially those residents who have made the area 'unsafe' - reminds me of a 
poster I once saw: 'O yea I will walk without fear through the valley of death 
because I am the meanest son of a bitch in the valley'

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[PAA]

> This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
> opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
> boundary area.

That makes sense, and it might indeed take a separate project to
create regional statistics maps as some have said, or to have people
rate areas and take a mean (a la that old rotten chestnut "hot or
not"). However, since there seems to be a lot of concern over
subjectivity, we could also just map "what's on the ground" (or not,
as the case may be): chalk outlines and missing bikes, autos, and
other stuff. Not nearly as useful as being able to shade a map layer
according to perceived danger, though.

-P

> Cheers
>
> Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Brian Quinion]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
 wrote:
> This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
> opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
> boundary area.

How about:

i_was_violently_threatened_while_trying_to_map_this=yes

Speaking from my experience of this weekend :-(

--
 Brian

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Nic Roets]

There are many areas that nearly everyone agrees is unsafe, even the
residents.

But more importantly, there is a reasonable amount of subjective stuff in
OSM already e.g. permissive footways across vacant land, residential vs.
living_street in countries were there's no seperate legal classification,
how many segments should be used to describe a corner. And although
wikipedia has many rules, a lot of it's content is subjective e.g. what is
notable, when can a blog be cited.

People learn to deal with it.


2009/3/30 Bernt M. Johnsen 

> Actually, I think this is a bad idea. Wether or not an area is "dangerous"
> is highly subjective, and will most likely result in heated edit wars.
>
> 2009/3/30 Russ Nelson 
>
>
>> On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:42 PM, NL wrote:
>>
>> >  Is it unsafe to park a bike/car there?
>>
>> We should mark areas of high bicycle theft, but we'd need a map to
>> display it.
>>
>> --
>> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog -
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
>> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM -
>> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bernt Marius Johnsen
> "Melius vivit qui remigat"
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Lunes, 30 de Marzo de 2009, Brian Quinion escribió:
> How about:
>
> i_was_violently_threatened_while_trying_to_map_this=yes
>
> Speaking from my experience of this weekend :-(

Oh, you mean you met the London police while taking photographs and carrying a 
GPS...

*ducks*

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Matt Amos]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Brian Quinion
 wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
>  wrote:
>> This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
>> opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
>> boundary area.
>
> How about:
>
> i_was_violently_threatened_while_trying_to_map_this=yes
>
> Speaking from my experience of this weekend :-(

after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
"locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
"locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?

cheers,

matt

PS: or combine with smoothness -> "locals=very_horrible" :-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[MP]

> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?

What happened at the Wembley mapping party?

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Matt Amos]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
>
> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?

andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
violence was done i think, just evil stares.

andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
there is a precedent :-)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Steve Chilton]

Indeed no harm done. But both Andy and I (independently) decided not to even go 
into the road, as others had apparently decided earlier! Discretion being 
definately the better part of valour in this case.
Incident noted at: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Steve%20Chilton/diary/3669
 
Cheers
STEVE

-Original Message- 
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org on behalf of Matt Amos 
Sent: Mon 3/30/2009 6:33 PM 
To: MP 
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
>
> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?

andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
violence was done i think, just evil stares.

andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
there is a precedent :-)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[OJ W]

2009/3/30 Russ Nelson :
> We should mark areas of high bicycle theft, but we'd need a map to
> display it.

Isn't this something the police do already?
http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2008/08/crime-in-hood.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Paul Johnson]

Matt Amos wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Brian Quinion
>  wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
>>  wrote:
>>> This should be tagged in a different way that uses fact instead of
>>> opinion/fiction. Perhaps by referring to crime statistics for a given
>>> boundary area.
>> How about:
>>
>> i_was_violently_threatened_while_trying_to_map_this=yes
>>
>> Speaking from my experience of this weekend :-(
> 
> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?

Too vague.  locals=violent would apply to much of the US...



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Simon Hewison]

Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> I don't think OSM is the place for statistics... it has been said over and 
> over "map what is on the ground".

But what we should be able to do is use the OSM data to easily correlate 
with available statistical sources, which means things like official 
boundaries and so on in the OSM dataset, so if someone said that 
statistically, the London Borough of Barnet has less car crime than Moss 
Side in Manchester, then it should be able to plot those areas on a map.

Whether anyone would want to build such overlays into applications like 
a vehicle navigation system "Find the nearest on-street free parking 
where I'll be able to come back and still likely find all my vehicle 
intact".. is another matter.

Not that any of this matters. Crime maps and statistics are always 
retrospective. Any crime figures for my street show a very low crime 
level, but that didn't stop my house being burgled and my car vandalised 
in the space of a weekend. If we can come up with a method of providing 
a reliable crime forecast and put it on a map, you've got a very 
valuable product. "If you leave your bicycle here after closing time at 
the local pub 'The Angle Grinder's tattood arms' then it's got a 25% 
chance of not being there tomorrow".

-- 
Simon Hewison

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Andy Allan]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
>>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
>>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
>>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
>>
>> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?
>
> andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
> council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
> violence was done i think, just evil stares.
>
> andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
> there is a precedent :-)
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700

I feel like I'm debating a "point of order" in a student union ( :-)
), but the encampment^Wstreet which Steve8 and I didn't want to map
was this one, a short distance away:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27693507

Also, if you check on the wiki, the locals=angsty is defined as
implying the tag mapper=slightly_lazy and is often used on hot
afternoons that bring out the worst in British council estate
congregation behaviour. The tag doesn't apply during rain or winter
conditions, but applies doubly shortly after football matches...

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[D Tucny]

2009/4/20 Andy Allan 

> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
> >>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
> >>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
> >>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
> >>
> >> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?
> >
> > andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
> > council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
> > violence was done i think, just evil stares.
> >
> > andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
> > there is a precedent :-)
> >
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700
>
> I feel like I'm debating a "point of order" in a student union ( :-)
> ), but the encampment^Wstreet which Steve8 and I didn't want to map
> was this one, a short distance away:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27693507
>
> Also, if you check on the wiki, the locals=angsty is defined as
> implying the tag mapper=slightly_lazy and is often used on hot
> afternoons that bring out the worst in British council estate
> congregation behaviour. The tag doesn't apply during rain or winter
> conditions, but applies doubly shortly after football matches...
>

After reading this thread and the comments on the diary post, I decided to
see if there was any streetview there now...

So, I entered Lynton Close, Wembley into the Google Maps find box and these
were the first and third results...

Mr T 
Blair‎
-
more info 
»
10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +44 7866 607197‎Unverified
listing
Write a 
review
"The Committee will continue to keep all the issues covered by the Sixth
Report under *close* review, while also continuing to fulfil its terms of
reference by *...*"
cabinetoffice.gov.uk


Gordon 
Brown's‎
-
more info 
»
10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +32 2 298 75 00‎Unverified
listing
Write a 
review
"I am writing this over the Christmas Break, (the copy dates are a month in
advance of publication) and, as our Epetition to the Prime Minister has just
*closed*, *...*"
sportsmansassociation.co.uk

Off topic, but, what a crazy combination of information google have put
together there that I found amusing :)

There's still no street view there, but, google's aerial imagery is pretty
high resolution...

Teleatlas seem to have it fully mapped, including a side road within the
area (as seen on google), but perhaps they used the aerial imagery...
Navteq, as seen on yahoo didn't seem to want to go near it and it appears
made a guess at the angle and length too...

d
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[D Tucny]

2009/4/20 D Tucny 

> 2009/4/20 Andy Allan 
>
>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
>> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
>> >>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
>> >>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
>> >>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
>> >>
>> >> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?
>> >
>> > andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
>> > council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
>> > violence was done i think, just evil stares.
>> >
>> > andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
>> > there is a precedent :-)
>> >
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700
>>
>> I feel like I'm debating a "point of order" in a student union ( :-)
>> ), but the encampment^Wstreet which Steve8 and I didn't want to map
>> was this one, a short distance away:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27693507
>>
>> Also, if you check on the wiki, the locals=angsty is defined as
>> implying the tag mapper=slightly_lazy and is often used on hot
>> afternoons that bring out the worst in British council estate
>> congregation behaviour. The tag doesn't apply during rain or winter
>> conditions, but applies doubly shortly after football matches...
>>
>
> After reading this thread and the comments on the diary post, I decided to
> see if there was any streetview there now...
>
> So, I entered Lynton Close, Wembley into the Google Maps find box and these
> were the first and third results...
>
> Mr T 
> Blair‎
>  -
> more info 
> »
> 10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +44 7866 607197‎ Unverified
> listing
> Write a 
> review
> "The Committee will continue to keep all the issues covered by the Sixth
> Report under *close* review, while also continuing to fulfil its terms of
> reference by *...*" 
> cabinetoffice.gov.uk
>
>
> Gordon 
> Brown's‎
>  -
> more info 
> »
> 10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +32 2 298 75 00‎ Unverified
> listing
> Write a 
> review
> "I am writing this over the Christmas Break, (the copy dates are a month in
> advance of publication) and, as our Epetition to the Prime Minister has just
> *closed*, *...*" 
> sportsmansassociation.co.uk
>
> Off topic, but, what a crazy combination of information google have put
> together there that I found amusing :)
>
> There's still no street view there, but, google's aerial imagery is pretty
> high resolution...
>
> Teleatlas seem to have it fully mapped, including a side road within the
> area (as seen on google), but perhaps they used the aerial imagery...
> Navteq, as seen on yahoo didn't seem to want to go near i

Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Gregory]

Although I've discussed the need for public footpaths to have a tag
landowner=hostile maybe with signage=dilberatly_altered...

Sounds like this is cause for a mash up from another source or website(which
could be set up for the purpose, or some goverment statistics etc.).

Someone mentioned hot or not. I overheard on irc someone mention
http://scenic.mysociety.org (which appears to be connected to geograph). I
think someone was going to mash it into a heat map overlaid on OSM. Would be
great if they do, otrherwise I might be tempted to.

I am currently available for hire to survey police-state roads (following a
recent success in London, see
http://www.livingwithdragons.com/2009/04/high-vis-authority-and-stealth-mapping).
Not sure I'm upp for rough areas yet, although being a student money and
beer could tempt me.

Gregory.


2009/4/19 D Tucny 

> 2009/4/20 D Tucny 
>
> 2009/4/20 Andy Allan 
>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
>>> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP  wrote:
>>> >>> after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a
>>> >>> "locals=angry" tag. maybe we should expand that to include
>>> >>> "locals=violent" or "locals=heavily_armed"?
>>> >>
>>> >> What happened at the Wembley mapping party?
>>> >
>>> > andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a
>>> > council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no
>>> > violence was done i think, just evil stares.
>>> >
>>> > andy actually tagged it "locals=angsty", rather than "angry", but
>>> > there is a precedent :-)
>>> >
>>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700
>>>
>>> I feel like I'm debating a "point of order" in a student union ( :-)
>>> ), but the encampment^Wstreet which Steve8 and I didn't want to map
>>> was this one, a short distance away:
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27693507
>>>
>>> Also, if you check on the wiki, the locals=angsty is defined as
>>> implying the tag mapper=slightly_lazy and is often used on hot
>>> afternoons that bring out the worst in British council estate
>>> congregation behaviour. The tag doesn't apply during rain or winter
>>> conditions, but applies doubly shortly after football matches...
>>>
>>
>> After reading this thread and the comments on the diary post, I decided to
>> see if there was any streetview there now...
>>
>> So, I entered Lynton Close, Wembley into the Google Maps find box and
>> these were the first and third results...
>>
>> Mr T 
>> Blair‎
>>  -
>> more info 
>> »
>> 10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +44 7866 607197‎Unverified 
>> listing
>> Write a 
>> review
>> "The Committee will continue to keep all the issues covered by the Sixth
>> Report under *close* review, while also continuing to fulfil its terms of
>> reference by *...*" 
>> cabinetoffice.gov.uk
>>
>>
>> Gordon 
>> Brown's‎
>>  -
>> more info 
>> »
>> 10 Downing Crescent, London, ON N6C, Canada‎ - +32 2 298 75 00‎Unverified 
>> listing
>> Write a 
>> review

Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas

[Mikel Maron]

> I am currently available for hire to survey police-state roads (following a 
> recent success in London, see 
> http://www.livingwithdragons.com/2009/04/high-vis-authority-and-stealth-mapping).
>  
> Not sure I'm upp for rough areas yet, although being a student money and beer 
> could tempt me.

Let me know when you're ready to start mapping disaster zones ;)

-Mikel___
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