Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 02:13:25PM +, Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote: I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in English and France in French. Actually, as an English speaker, I want a bi-lingual map when abroad - I'm going to be thinking of my destination as Munich (for example) but want the reassurance of knowing the signposts to München are pointing the direction I'm going. s ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
2009/1/19 Robert (Jamie) Munro rjmu...@arjam.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ビカス ヤダワ (vikas yadav) wrote: where is a local language being set for a country or a region? By the country or regions government, usually. I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in English and France in French. IMHO, the correct procedure for drawing a map is to: 1. Decide what language your map is in. 2. Look for name:[language]= tags and draw them 3. Look for name= tags where the one for your language doesn't exist. The problem is that the default maps generated by the project (mapnik and osmarender) both get this wrong. They omit step one, and try to pretend that the map can be not in any particular language. It's obviously a preference thing then... I'd prefer a map that had the real names of features rather than whatever, potentially dodgy, translation any other language had... I admit that it might be useful, especially with non-latin character based languages to view alternative, potentially latin variant names as an option, but, that shouldn't, I believe, be the default... Yes, making the maps available in different languages would be good, and the idea of separating captions out into their own layers might be the best approach to that, but, if we have any sort of default I believe it should reflect the real feature names in their native language... This is what I would expect... I think your correct procedure for drawing a map could only be applicable if you had a limited audience... OSM has an unlimited audience... The default view of the map can't/shouldn't be targetted at a specific language in my opinion... d ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ビカス ヤダワ (vikas yadav) wrote: where is a local language being set for a country or a region? By the country or regions government, usually. I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. If I speak English, I want and English map of the world. If I speak French, I want a French map of the world. In neither case do I want a map that has England in English and France in French. IMHO, the correct procedure for drawing a map is to: 1. Decide what language your map is in. 2. Look for name:[language]= tags and draw them 3. Look for name= tags where the one for your language doesn't exist. The problem is that the default maps generated by the project (mapnik and osmarender) both get this wrong. They omit step one, and try to pretend that the map can be not in any particular language. AFAIK, there is no English language rendering of OSM. There is a Welsh one, for example here: http://sucs.org/~rollercow/cyosm/ and probably other languages around the place. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkl0ioMACgkQz+aYVHdncI1HhgCdFZ6LnUDS7/DQc7zpz2M2ZNVv 4kgAoOjYB/J4Lbvom4tBoTNNbouBDANf =jQ7s -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Thu, January 15, 2009 14:31, Stefan Baebler wrote: where is a local language being set for a country or a region? It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language name is in, only the mapper does. Software can only gues the language of the default name from an identical name value with a specified language. eg: name=Venezia name:en=Venice name:sl=Benetke name:de=Venedig ... can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign names) With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with additional languages) when needed eg such precise tag could be wikipedia:en=Venice This is one reason why I add the geonames ID of country objects to the node. If necessary, a renderer could pull additional names from geonames, if / when they become available, without having to go to Wikipedia and parse the information found there. Mind you, I'm adding just the geonames ID, not the data found there ;-) Regards, Hakan -- The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
2009/1/19 Hakan Tandogan ha...@gurkensalat.com: On Thu, January 15, 2009 14:31, Stefan Baebler wrote: where is a local language being set for a country or a region? It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language name is in, only the mapper does. Software can only gues the language of the default name from an identical name value with a specified language. eg: name=Venezia name:en=Venice name:sl=Benetke name:de=Venedig ... can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign names) With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with additional languages) when needed eg such precise tag could be wikipedia:en=Venice I was wondering about links to wikipedia in national languages and asked about it on IRC recently and settled on tagging with wikipedia=en:Venice rather than wikipedia:en=Venice (actually I use the form wikipedia=language:Page_Title only for non-english articles and wikipedia=Page_Title if English is available). I try to tag not only major place names but also anything else that has a page. Using wikipedia= instead of wikipedia:language= is good because it strongly suggests that there is only one such tag per object instead of many and avoids having conflicting translations with those in wikipedia. This is one reason why I add the geonames ID of country objects to the node. If necessary, a renderer could pull additional names from geonames, if / when they become available, without having to go to Wikipedia and parse the information found there. Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display (mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database. I spotted a typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database. I think the renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix. Where does the data come from? Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
Can you give an example please? The change I instigated in mapnik was to pick up the place=country tag combination from the database and map that. Cheers STEVE -Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org on behalf of andrzej zaborowski Sent: Mon 1/19/2009 4:01 PM To: Hakan Tandogan Cc: vi...@thevikas.com; osm-talk; Sascha Silbe Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom Slightly off-topic, the recently added low-zoom country map display (mapnik) apparently pulls data from outside OSM database. I spotted a typo (or what I think is a typo) and wanted to correct it and found that the name with a typo was nowhere in the database. I think the renderer should only pull data from sources that we can fix. Where does the data come from? Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
2009/1/19 vegard veg...@engen.priv.no: On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 05:01:17PM +0100, andrzej zaborowski wrote: I was wondering about links to wikipedia in national languages and asked about it on IRC recently and settled on tagging with wikipedia=en:Venice rather than wikipedia:en=Venice (actually I use the form wikipedia=language:Page_Title only for non-english articles and wikipedia=Page_Title if English is available). I try to tag not only major place names but also anything else that has a page. Using wikipedia= instead of wikipedia:language= is good because it strongly suggests that there is only one such tag per object instead of many and avoids having conflicting translations with those in wikipedia. This, I do not agree with at all. And your example is very good to demonstrate :) Why shouldn't the italian version of the page, http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezia, be the authorative page, It looks a little bit larger and more extensive. Sure, I'm not saying English is preferred or authoritative.. just how to tag it. In case of an italian city node, you may want to use wikipedia=it:Venezia, but it doesn't really make any difference because pages on the different wikipedias are all interlinked. Since the wikipedia= tag is already documented on the wiki and was used for linking to english articles on WP, for compatibility with what's already there I leave out the en: part if it's in english (not otherwise). Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
2009/1/19 Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk: Can you give an example please? The change I instigated in mapnik was to pick up the place=country tag combination from the database and map that. Oh this isn't a place=country, it's particularly the Lake Onegh halfway between the labels Finland and Russian Federation (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=61.7mlon=36.7zoom=5layers=B000FTF). (note that the lake as a patch of water also doesn't appear at this zoom level) Not meaning to say that it shouldn't be rendered... just wondering where the names are pulled from. If you look at Moscow, it renders as Moskva (which *is* in the database -- but only as name:no) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:53 AM, D Tucny d...@tucny.com wrote: As I see it, the default render shouldn't be English, it should be using the local name of each location/object... I would consider an exception for state names and possibly very big cities, if mapnik could be able to build the label from different tags, it would be nice to have name (name:en) on those. The data should remain separated in the two tags, however, using name = Local Name (English Name) sounds like tagging for the renders The one exception I see, which I'm not sure on how best to handle, is countries that have multiple official languages and as such, multiple official names... I believe this to be the case at least with Belgium and Switzerland for example where there are multiple valid local names depending on the language used in a certain part of the country (plus latin for Switzerland)... I believe that the official Swiss name is the latin one, exactly to solve this issue, but I'm not sure that all of the countries with more than one official language have a standard official name like them. -- Elena of Valhalla homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:17:46AM +0530, ??? ??? (vikas yadav) wrote: where is a local language being set for a country or a region? It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language name is in, only the mapper does. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
where is a local language being set for a country or a region? It isn't at all. The software doesn't know which language name is in, only the mapper does. Software can only gues the language of the default name from an identical name value with a specified language. eg: name=Venezia name:en=Venice name:sl=Benetke name:de=Venedig ... can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign names) With just one tag precisely describing the name (with language) all other translations could be pulled from wikipedia (enriching maps with additional languages) when needed eg such precise tag could be wikipedia:en=Venice Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
Software can only gues the language of the default name from an identical name value with a specified language. eg: name=Venezia name:en=Venice name:sl=Benetke name:de=Venedig ... can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign names) How would you deal with something like: name=Paris name:fr=Paris name:es=Paris name:en=Paris ? You can't really tell the default language from this. It would only work if we can guarantee that only where the name is different in a specific language is it tagged - I've not checked but I'd guess there are lots of examples of (strictly speaking superfluous) tags like this. There will also be cases where the only difference is an accent on a letter - this will work if correctly tagged, but there will probably be a lot of errors in the tagging where an accent missed off in the native language. (e.g. Peru vs Perú). Cheers, Donald ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Donald Allwright donald_allwri...@yahoo.com wrote: Software can only gues the language of the default name from an identical name value with a specified language. eg: name=Venezia name:en=Venice name:sl=Benetke name:de=Venedig ... can additonally be tagged with name:it=Venezia This could be used to make nice maps of default languages, if only it was used more than just on major cities (smaller places rarely have foreign names) How would you deal with something like: name=Paris name:fr=Paris name:es=Paris name:en=Paris name:sl=Pariz so we can scratch at least that one out from the list of all possible local languages to give that Paris pixel a bit more yellowish tone ;) I did say such language maps could be nice, not necessarily exact. Stefan ? You can't really tell the default language from this. It would only work if we can guarantee that only where the name is different in a specific language is it tagged - I've not checked but I'd guess there are lots of examples of (strictly speaking superfluous) tags like this. There will also be cases where the only difference is an accent on a letter - this will work if correctly tagged, but there will probably be a lot of errors in the tagging where an accent missed off in the native language. (e.g. Peru vs Perú). Cheers, Donald ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote: * Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04. name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local language. From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]: name=Irgendwas(the default name, used locally) name:en=Something (the name in English) [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
where is a local language being set for a country or a region? 2009/1/15 Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-gis-osm-t...@silbe.org On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote: * Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04. name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local language. From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]: name=Irgendwas(the default name, used locally) name:en=Something (the name in English) [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBSW5XgLpz82VMF3DaAQKLbQf6A6CGpp//6s4o5c8sdb8pLz/pu6iV8UxH gdSa/RYD0GhYiOgp/WWRtqOj+QYTqm76iEcCIj/8VGueS0aRDbTAU3dEmNfhOsRX lg7Iu8kJ/Op6401rKp4m3Wz80V+F9gbFxg8SWoISc5rjJw9Ku3QOlCGNOhZG7YQU KMbwdOLbotqTMvjDJBY4xSNAbcsz5L1NFttkPXsPMq1prBINzdLvQJvkvCHGw9DN HkHPg2A2Lmag8yNXi4S0epFo/VQBKGpcueY1MDhsHm20QC8kTH57jqKnTPZNyEUb 0mFVGPotEO92QliKeMoXrablAilCKtS0oGL8bPOBMwTsRtLdpTxl2g== =6pHo -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name tags on place=country and how they're rendered on lowzoom
2009/1/15 Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-gis-osm-t...@silbe.org On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 08:14:21PM +, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason wrote: * Most have the common English name in the name= field, e.g. Germany and Andorra At least for Germany, this has already been fixed on 2008-12-04. name=* (without a language code) should be the name in the local language. From the wiki page defining the meaning of name [1]: name=Irgendwas(the default name, used locally) name:en=Something (the name in English) [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name +1 As I see it, the default render shouldn't be English, it should be using the local name of each location/object... If/when we get caption layers for different languages, then, the English caption layer would contain the English names of countries, and this would be OK as the user could choose to view data in English, equally, someone could choose a Chinese layer to view the Chinese names of countries or a Japanese layer to view the Japanese names of countries... Also, if someone so desired, they could make a caption layer that incorporated the local name with English or a combination of languages in smaller text below the local name, or the local name followed by the English name in parentheses... I feel that the approach of putting multiple languages into the name tag when there are not multiple local languages is at least not good as I see it as being tagging for the renderer(s) in their current state, rather than providing all the information in such a way as the renderer can use it as they see fit... The one exception I see, which I'm not sure on how best to handle, is countries that have multiple official languages and as such, multiple official names... I believe this to be the case at least with Belgium and Switzerland for example where there are multiple valid local names depending on the language used in a certain part of the country (plus latin for Switzerland)... d ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
