Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Scott Rollins]

I'll just say that, whether "bug" or "feature," this message perfectly
encapsulates why I am unwilling to spend my time working on OSM. I don't
want to waste my time, and by not having a good place to learn what to do,
I have to do a whole lot of work to figure out whether the additions I'm making
will be useful or simply clutter up the database.

I love the concept of OSM, and I'm glad to have the ability to use maps
based on OSM's work...but the setup of the project leaves me feeling unable
to usefully contribute.

Scott


On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
> > Hi - N00b question here:
> >
> > What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM
> community?
>
> It's a mixed bag, some of the information is very good and of high
> quality and some is outdated, and some is of low quality.
>
> The problem is that the wiki is not a single entity, but rather a
> collection of the work of lots of people.
>
> And as others have said, those busy mapping often don't have
> time/interest to document, and those people who love documentation and
> process aren't always in the thick of the actual mapping- so they're
> giving proscriptive orders on high, with little thought to reality.
>
> > In my brief period here, I've been told things like this:
> >
> > - For tags: RTFW
>
> Most tags are well documented. Remember, OSM is a folksonomy. Tags are
> accepted by their use. If a tag is in heavy use, it will show up in
> taginfo. Some tags are very accepted (highway=residential), and others
> are controversial and others are just one person's opinion.
>
> In the end, "accepted" is a complex term in the OSM context. The
> tagging list has a process that they follow, but that doesn't mean a
> lot. I've had tags that I've used and propsed be argued against with
> vehemence on that list, only to see them later be used by others,
> appear as defaults in editors, etc. and still AFAIK not be on the
> wiki, where I've also seen tags by the taggling list be on the wiki
> but no one actually use.
>
> > - For relations: do NOT read the wiki & HELL YES read the wiki
>
> Relations are a complex topic. They're generally loved by those who
> like to talk in theory but not in practice.
>
> The problem is they're very hard to work with.
>
> > - Imports: the wiki's out of date
>
> > (Also - I've received information off IRC that conflicts with both email
> &
> > wiki)
>
> As it's been said, everyone will give you their own opinions. No
> single member of our community is an authoritative source (not even
> SteveC).
>
> > In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant?
>
> You eventually get a feel for it, but it's hard to know as a newbie, for
> sure.
>
> You can also find info at help.openstreetmap.org.
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> talk...@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>



-- 
Scott Rollins, 
Portsmouth, VA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Kathleen Danielson]

>
> *Some of these resources may require a
> little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
> **or interconnected as they should be,* but you have to realize that
> OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by
> volunteers who are working really hard to keep up with and channel
> that progress.


I think that the first half of that sentence is worth taking notice of,
with all due respect to the second half (and the volunteers who make it
so!). As a newcomer to OSM, I am aware that there are some really fantastic
resources out there, but I'm not really sure where to start, and that in
and of itself ends up being quite discouraging. Some more direction and
encouragement for new users could both help new mappers who share these
frustrations, as well as identify highest priority action items for
documentation improvement.

I gather there's a proposal for a new Welcome Working
Group,
and I think that this potential group has a lot to offer in this exact
area. I 100% understand how experienced users and contributors can feel
taxed by discussions like this, but I think there is a subset of members
who are eager to help onboard new mappers. Maybe this is a good time to
re-kickstart that proposal? Personally, I'm really excited to get involved
in this aspect of the OSM community.

(apologies if I'm missing any important context/discussions happening
elsewhere)

Best,
Kathleen

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Some of these resources may require a
> little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
> or interconnected as they should be,
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Scott Rollins writes:
 > I'll just say that, whether "bug" or "feature," this message perfectly
 > encapsulates why I am unwilling to spend my time working on OSM. I don't
 > want to waste my time, and by not having a good place to learn what to do,

Scott, what Fred said! You don't need to be an expert in all things
OSM to be able to contribute one thing to OSM. You could, for example,
just put in some park benches (amenity=bench), or a foot path through
a local town park (highway=footway), or some fire hydrants
(emergency=fire_hydrant). Or trace some buildings (building=yes).

The main point is for you to contribute the things that you love, to
share them with other people. I'm a railfan, so I've added every
railroad in New York State that ever existed to OSM (except most
trolley lines, because they usually don't show up anymore). And maybe
I've done some things wrong, but nobody has complained to me yet, and
if they do, I'll re-do whatever's wrong simply because I want OSM to
be the best map of NY railroads anywhere.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Martijn van Exel]

Kathleen,

Yes, the Welcome WG does need a boost after Richard's (cc) initial
great work on the proposal and initial meeting. I wanted to wait until
the semester is over so that my teaching obligations would not keep
interfering, but I guess we're almost there, so I am willing to
organize a next meeting to see who's interested in committing time to
this WG, what we can do right now and what the longer term agenda and
priorities should be.

So how about next week? Anyone who has ideas about and - more
importantly - is willing to spend time towards solving the Welcome
problem, please join.

http://doodle.com/z4rzz66k2nhh5h2d

We can do it on IRC, Google Hangout (my preference), phone or whatever
works for all involved.

Martijn

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Kathleen Danielson
 wrote:
>> Some of these resources may require a
>> little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
>> or interconnected as they should be, but you have to realize that
>> OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by
>> volunteers who are working really hard to keep up with and channel
>> that progress.
>
>
> I think that the first half of that sentence is worth taking notice of, with
> all due respect to the second half (and the volunteers who make it so!). As
> a newcomer to OSM, I am aware that there are some really fantastic resources
> out there, but I'm not really sure where to start, and that in and of itself
> ends up being quite discouraging. Some more direction and encouragement for
> new users could both help new mappers who share these frustrations, as well
> as identify highest priority action items for documentation improvement.
>
> I gather there's a proposal for a new Welcome Working Group, and I think
> that this potential group has a lot to offer in this exact area. I 100%
> understand how experienced users and contributors can feel taxed by
> discussions like this, but I think there is a subset of members who are
> eager to help onboard new mappers. Maybe this is a good time to re-kickstart
> that proposal? Personally, I'm really excited to get involved in this aspect
> of the OSM community.
>
> (apologies if I'm missing any important context/discussions happening
> elsewhere)
>
> Best,
> Kathleen
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>>
>> Some of these resources may require a
>> little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
>> or interconnected as they should be,
>
>



-- 
Martijn van Exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
http://openstreetmap.us/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Martijn van Exel]

No place to learn what to do? The wiki may be overwhelming, sometimes
outdated and incorrect, or even a vehicle for personal opinions on
tagging and whatnot, but there are definitely resources to help you
get started. All OSM editors have useful presets for common features,
you can't really go wrong with those. The Map Features page[1]
describes widely used common tags. learnosm.org is there to guide you
through first steps in OSM. And if you're looking for help or if you
don't feel confident about your edits, there's these and other mailing
lists, IRC, help.osm.org and forum.osm.org. OpenStreetMap US hosts
regular Virtual Mappy Hours you can join from anywhere. There's
Facebook, LinkedIn and Google+ pages where helpful members are always
willing to answer questions. Some of these resources may require a
little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
or interconnected as they should be, but you have to realize that
OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by
volunteers who are working really hard to keep up with and channel
that progress.

You are apparently willing to spend your time reading these mailing
lists, so why not be constructive about it and either ask questions to
 help you along in your mapping efforts, or make some actionable
suggestions about how we can do a better job explaining mapping and
tagging to new contributors?

Best,
Martijn

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Scott Rollins  wrote:
>
> I'll just say that, whether "bug" or "feature," this message perfectly
> encapsulates why I am unwilling to spend my time working on OSM. I don't
> want to waste my time, and by not having a good place to learn what to do, I
> have to do a whole lot of work to figure out whether the additions I'm
> making will be useful or simply clutter up the database.
>
> I love the concept of OSM, and I'm glad to have the ability to use maps
> based on OSM's work...but the setup of the project leaves me feeling unable
> to usefully contribute.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Serge Wroclawski 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
>> > Hi - N00b question here:
>> >
>> > What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM
>> > community?
>>
>> It's a mixed bag, some of the information is very good and of high
>> quality and some is outdated, and some is of low quality.
>>
>> The problem is that the wiki is not a single entity, but rather a
>> collection of the work of lots of people.
>>
>> And as others have said, those busy mapping often don't have
>> time/interest to document, and those people who love documentation and
>> process aren't always in the thick of the actual mapping- so they're
>> giving proscriptive orders on high, with little thought to reality.
>>
>> > In my brief period here, I've been told things like this:
>> >
>> > - For tags: RTFW
>>
>> Most tags are well documented. Remember, OSM is a folksonomy. Tags are
>> accepted by their use. If a tag is in heavy use, it will show up in
>> taginfo. Some tags are very accepted (highway=residential), and others
>> are controversial and others are just one person's opinion.
>>
>> In the end, "accepted" is a complex term in the OSM context. The
>> tagging list has a process that they follow, but that doesn't mean a
>> lot. I've had tags that I've used and propsed be argued against with
>> vehemence on that list, only to see them later be used by others,
>> appear as defaults in editors, etc. and still AFAIK not be on the
>> wiki, where I've also seen tags by the taggling list be on the wiki
>> but no one actually use.
>>
>> > - For relations: do NOT read the wiki & HELL YES read the wiki
>>
>> Relations are a complex topic. They're generally loved by those who
>> like to talk in theory but not in practice.
>>
>> The problem is they're very hard to work with.
>>
>> > - Imports: the wiki's out of date
>>
>> > (Also - I've received information off IRC that conflicts with both
>> > email &
>> > wiki)
>>
>> As it's been said, everyone will give you their own opinions. No
>> single member of our community is an authoritative source (not even
>> SteveC).
>>
>> > In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant?
>>
>> You eventually get a feel for it, but it's hard to know as a newbie, for
>> sure.
>>
>> You can also find info at help.openstreetmap.org.
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> talk...@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>
>
> --
> Scott Rollins, 
> Portsmouth, VA
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> talk...@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>



--
Martijn van Exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
http://openstreetmap.us/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/12/5 Serge Wroclawski :
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
>> - For relations: do NOT read the wiki & HELL YES read the wiki
> Relations are a complex topic. They're generally loved by those who
> like to talk in theory but not in practice.
> The problem is they're very hard to work with.


the thing with relations is, they are completely universal, you can
model any kind of relation between nodes, ways and other relations,
but naturally only a few concepts are generally evaluated (and used in
mapping). Some relations are established though, and those get also
evaluated for a wider group of maps, are supported in current tools
and libs like osmium or osm2pgsql or for routing, and it's worth
mentioning this.

These are
- "multipolygon" and "boundary" relations (basically the same)
- "route" relations
- turn "restriction" relations

to see more types and actual usage statistics have a look at taginfo:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/type#values
(there is public_transport, site, street and associatedStreet also in
significant numbers, but AFAIK they get less often evaluated). Note
that not all objects with a "type"-tag are relations.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
> Hi - N00b question here:
>
> What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM community?

It's a mixed bag, some of the information is very good and of high
quality and some is outdated, and some is of low quality.

The problem is that the wiki is not a single entity, but rather a
collection of the work of lots of people.

And as others have said, those busy mapping often don't have
time/interest to document, and those people who love documentation and
process aren't always in the thick of the actual mapping- so they're
giving proscriptive orders on high, with little thought to reality.

> In my brief period here, I've been told things like this:
>
> - For tags: RTFW

Most tags are well documented. Remember, OSM is a folksonomy. Tags are
accepted by their use. If a tag is in heavy use, it will show up in
taginfo. Some tags are very accepted (highway=residential), and others
are controversial and others are just one person's opinion.

In the end, "accepted" is a complex term in the OSM context. The
tagging list has a process that they follow, but that doesn't mean a
lot. I've had tags that I've used and propsed be argued against with
vehemence on that list, only to see them later be used by others,
appear as defaults in editors, etc. and still AFAIK not be on the
wiki, where I've also seen tags by the taggling list be on the wiki
but no one actually use.

> - For relations: do NOT read the wiki & HELL YES read the wiki

Relations are a complex topic. They're generally loved by those who
like to talk in theory but not in practice.

The problem is they're very hard to work with.

> - Imports: the wiki's out of date

> (Also - I've received information off IRC that conflicts with both email &
> wiki)

As it's been said, everyone will give you their own opinions. No
single member of our community is an authoritative source (not even
SteveC).

> In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant?

You eventually get a feel for it, but it's hard to know as a newbie, for sure.

You can also find info at help.openstreetmap.org.

- Serge

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