Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Clifford Snow]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> Still having problems,  now a search on Starbucks is returning ones in
> Thailand.  Can these tags be removed too?


I have a message into two of the mappers that added most of the Starbucks
in Thailand asking for their help. From my conversations with another Thai
mapper, most mappers in Thailand read English. The message was just sent
yesterday so let's give them a few days.

Clifford


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Philip Barnes]

Still having problems,  now a search on Starbucks is returning ones in 
Thailand.  Can these tags be removed too?

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Andy Mabbett]

On 21 January 2016 at 00:39, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>>
>> I've linked that Wikidata item to the parent company (which has a
>> series of Wikipedia links) - orphan items with no Wikipedia links are
>> liable to be deleted from Wikidata.

> Can you explain more about the wikidata orphans and how to find these links?

It's not just that they're orphans, but that's usually taken as a sign
that they don't meet the notability guidelines:

  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability

(the criteria for being included in Wikidata).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Philip Barnes]

Thank you Clifford. 

On Thu Jan 21 15:12:55 2016 GMT, Clifford Snow wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> > Still having problems,  now a search on Starbucks is returning ones in
> > Thailand.  Can these tags be removed too?
> 
> 
> I have a message into two of the mappers that added most of the Starbucks
> in Thailand asking for their help. From my conversations with another Thai
> mapper, most mappers in Thailand read English. The message was just sent
> yesterday so let's give them a few days.
> 
> Clifford
> 
> 
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Andy Mabbett]

On 21 January 2016 at 07:14, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> For chain stores I tend to add a link to the corporate website only

I thought we weren't supposed to do that?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[JB]

Just saying that I'm impressed how much people can write about that 
specific private company. Are there some lobbyists hidden somewhere out 
there? Will next month be the same with McDonald's or Burger King?


Le 21/01/2016 17:25, Andy Mabbett a écrit :

On 21 January 2016 at 07:14, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:


For chain stores I tend to add a link to the corporate website only

I thought we weren't supposed to do that?




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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Jo]

Why is that a problem? We do tend to tag them, so why not try to get it
right and do it properly? I have to admit I didn't go as far as adding
opening hours, AFAIC that's what the deeplinks are there for. I also didn't
add any new ones for my area of interest, just fixed the already mapped
ones.

Jo

2016-01-21 18:27 GMT+01:00 JB :

> Just saying that I'm impressed how much people can write about that
> specific private company. Are there some lobbyists hidden somewhere out
> there? Will next month be the same with McDonald's or Burger King?
>
> Le 21/01/2016 17:25, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
>
>> On 21 January 2016 at 07:14, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
>>
>> For chain stores I tend to add a link to the corporate website only
>>>
>> I thought we weren't supposed to do that?
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Clifford Snow]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 9:27 AM, JB  wrote:

> Just saying that I'm impressed how much people can write about that
> specific private company. Are there some lobbyists hidden somewhere out
> there? Will next month be the same with McDonald's or Burger King?


I took on the Starbucks issue after it was used as an example of
Nomimatim's listing locations no where near the bbox. Living in Seattle
it's hard not be impacted by Starbucks. Other than interacting with their
barista's I don't know anyone nor do I have any connection with the
corporation. I did try to get them to give me a list of their location to
add to OSM. I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. FYI - Seattle has
many coffee shops far superior to Starbucks.

The issue is partly a tagging problem. People were adding a wikipedia link
to the main Starbucks article. That caused Nominatim to include them in a
search. When we are done cleaning up Starbucks, we'll still have at least
one Starbucks with a wikipedia link, the original store. That should cause
Nominatim to display it first. Personally I don't think that is correct. I
still believe that Nominatim should give back results based on bbox
regardless of wikipedia for certain features. In this case, amenity=cafe.
We still owe it to the developers of Nominatim to tag correctly. We
shouldn't complain if we don't follow our own rules.

McDonald's or Burger King, yes , we should clean those up as well.

Clifford


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Paul Norman]

On 1/21/2016 1:44 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:

When we are done cleaning up Starbucks, we'll still have at least one 
Starbucks with a wikipedia link, the original store 


But this won't be a link to the Starbucks article, but instead the 
specific one on that notable store.


I still believe that Nominatim should give back results based on bbox 
regardless of wikipedia for certain features. In this case, amenity=cafe.


If you want results only within a bounding box, set that parameter when 
querying Nominatim. See 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim#Parameters for 
documentation on Nominatim, or as an example,


- 
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?format=xml=1=-123.1%2C50.2%2C-122.7%2C50.1=Starbucks 
for a query with few results and
- 
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?format=xml=1=-123.1%2C55.2%2C-122.7%2C55.1=Starbucks 
for a query with no results.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Maarten Deen]

On 2016-01-21 23:16, Paul Norman wrote:

On 1/21/2016 1:44 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:

When we are done cleaning up Starbucks, we'll still have at least one 
Starbucks with a wikipedia link, the original store


But this won't be a link to the Starbucks article, but instead the
specific one on that notable store.

I still believe that Nominatim should give back results based on bbox 
regardless of wikipedia for certain features. In this case, 
amenity=cafe.


If you want results only within a bounding box, set that parameter
when querying Nominatim. See
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim#Parameters for
documentation on Nominatim, or as an example,

-
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?format=xml=1=-123.1%2C50.2%2C-122.7%2C50.1=Starbucks
for a query with few results and
-
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?format=xml=1=-123.1%2C55.2%2C-122.7%2C55.1=Starbucks
for a query with no results.


How do I enter that on the OSM map page? I can search for "Burger King, 
Netherlands", but the results returned look to me randomly sorted.
An option "near location" would be so enourmously wonderful. And then 
not "only in boundingbox", but showing nearest results first and distant 
results last.
And that is what I would expect as default from a search on a map when I 
enter a location.


Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

For chain stores I tend to add a link to the corporate website only, as
deeper links are too fragile (see KeepRight for tens of thousands of OSM
URL links that no longer work).

Best in my mind is a synchronization between the corporate store finder and
OSM.  At that point a deep link to the individual store page on the
corporate page makes a lot of sense.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Janko Mihelić]

It would be great if you guys added brand:wikidata=Q37158 to all of them,
that way you can search for all Starbucks with one easy query.

sri, 20. sij 2016. u 00:46 Alejandro S.  napisao je:

> Just removed last wrong point in Spain.
> Only 11 point to go.
>
> Atentamente,
>   Alejandro Suárez
>
> On 18 January 2016 at 07:26, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for getting this fixed. Looks much better already. Only a few
>> countries to go.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I had reported this issue on talk-ja ML, and got no against.
>>> So I had removed the tags on Starbucks in Japan area.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-12-16 8:32 GMT+09:00 Andy Mabbett :
>>>
 On 15 December 2015 at 21:37, Clifford Snow 
 wrote:
 > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar <
 sea...@gmail.com>
 > wrote:
 >>
 >> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the
 Wikipedia
 >> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
 article
 >> is about the company/brand and not about the original store even
 though the
 >> article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
 >> history).

 > I agree, the wikipedia article is "Original Starbucks."  I updated
 the tag
 > to reflect the correct article, not the generic corp. article.

 That's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Starbucks

 Please also tag the OSM object with:

wikidata=Q16896241

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 @pigsonthewing
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Jo]

I totally agree, so this morning I worked on the Starbucks the Starbucks
that existed previously in Belgium.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36694768

I also added direct links to the Starbucks home page for that particular
one + created a Wikidata item for the operator and pointed to that one as
well.

Polyglot

2016-01-20 16:50 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> It would be great if you guys added brand:wikidata=Q37158 to all of them,
> that way you can search for all Starbucks with one easy query.
>
> sri, 20. sij 2016. u 00:46 Alejandro S.  napisao
> je:
>
>> Just removed last wrong point in Spain.
>> Only 11 point to go.
>>
>> Atentamente,
>>   Alejandro Suárez
>>
>> On 18 January 2016 at 07:26, Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for getting this fixed. Looks much better already. Only a few
>>> countries to go.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 I had reported this issue on talk-ja ML, and got no against.
 So I had removed the tags on Starbucks in Japan area.

 Thanks!



 2015-12-16 8:32 GMT+09:00 Andy Mabbett :

> On 15 December 2015 at 21:37, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar <
> sea...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the
> Wikipedia
> >> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
> article
> >> is about the company/brand and not about the original store even
> though the
> >> article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
> >> history).
>
> > I agree, the wikipedia article is "Original Starbucks."  I updated
> the tag
> > to reflect the correct article, not the generic corp. article.
>
> That's:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Starbucks
>
> Please also tag the OSM object with:
>
>wikidata=Q16896241
>
> --
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> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Andy Mabbett]

On 20 January 2016 at 17:52, Jo  wrote:

> Starbucks

> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36694768
>
> I also added direct links to the Starbucks home page for that particular one
> + created a Wikidata item for the operator and pointed to that one as well.

Excellent!

I've linked that Wikidata item to the parent company (which has a
series of Wikipedia links) - orphan items with no Wikipedia links are
liable to be deleted from Wikidata.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> I've linked that Wikidata item to the parent company (which has a
> series of Wikipedia links) - orphan items with no Wikipedia links are
> liable to be deleted from Wikidata.
>

Andy,
Can you explain more about the wikidata orphans and how to find these links?

Clifford


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Alejandro S.]

Just removed last wrong point in Spain.
Only 11 point to go.

Atentamente,
  Alejandro Suárez

On 18 January 2016 at 07:26, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> Thanks for getting this fixed. Looks much better already. Only a few
> countries to go.
>
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA  wrote:
>
>>
>> I had reported this issue on talk-ja ML, and got no against.
>> So I had removed the tags on Starbucks in Japan area.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-12-16 8:32 GMT+09:00 Andy Mabbett :
>>
>>> On 15 December 2015 at 21:37, Clifford Snow 
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar <
>>> sea...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the
>>> Wikipedia
>>> >> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
>>> article
>>> >> is about the company/brand and not about the original store even
>>> though the
>>> >> article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
>>> >> history).
>>>
>>> > I agree, the wikipedia article is "Original Starbucks."  I updated the
>>> tag
>>> > to reflect the correct article, not the generic corp. article.
>>>
>>> That's:
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Starbucks
>>>
>>> Please also tag the OSM object with:
>>>
>>>wikidata=Q16896241
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Mabbett
>>> @pigsonthewing
>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
>> twitter: @nyampire
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Clifford Snow]

Thanks for getting this fixed. Looks much better already. Only a few
countries to go.

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA  wrote:

>
> I had reported this issue on talk-ja ML, and got no against.
> So I had removed the tags on Starbucks in Japan area.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> 2015-12-16 8:32 GMT+09:00 Andy Mabbett :
>
>> On 15 December 2015 at 21:37, Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar > >
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the Wikipedia
>> >> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
>> article
>> >> is about the company/brand and not about the original store even
>> though the
>> >> article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
>> >> history).
>>
>> > I agree, the wikipedia article is "Original Starbucks."  I updated the
>> tag
>> > to reflect the correct article, not the generic corp. article.
>>
>> That's:
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Starbucks
>>
>> Please also tag the OSM object with:
>>
>>wikidata=Q16896241
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Satoshi IIDA]

I had reported this issue on talk-ja ML, and got no against.
So I had removed the tags on Starbucks in Japan area.

Thanks!



2015-12-16 8:32 GMT+09:00 Andy Mabbett :

> On 15 December 2015 at 21:37, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the Wikipedia
> >> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
> article
> >> is about the company/brand and not about the original store even though
> the
> >> article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
> >> history).
>
> > I agree, the wikipedia article is "Original Starbucks."  I updated the
> tag
> > to reflect the correct article, not the generic corp. article.
>
> That's:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Starbucks
>
> Please also tag the OSM object with:
>
>wikidata=Q16896241
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> My adding the wikipedia tag to the original Starbucks store...
>

I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the Wikipedia
article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia article
is about the company/brand and not about the original store even though the
article would certainly mention the store (as part of the company's
history).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Lester Caine]

On 15/12/15 18:05, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Clifford Snow  > wrote:
> 
> My adding the wikipedia tag to the original Starbucks store...
> 
> I disagree with this tagging. You only tag wikipedia=* if the Wikipedia
> article and the OSM object refers to the same thing. The Wikipedia
> article is about the company/brand and not about the original store even
> though the article would certainly mention the store (as part of the
> company's history).

Just to expand this, a website URL should also only link to a particular
branch and most corporate websites have a 'store finder' which provides
that link. Certainly the wikipedia link should follow the same
convention. The store link if well implemented will provide all of the
extra data that some people think should be added directly to the
database and the Starbucks finder is a particularly good example!

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/12/2015 17:36, Clifford Snow wrote:
... Is there someone on the list that is familiar with China, Japan, 
Spain, Poland and Thailand that could fix those?


For info I did comment (in English) on one of the changesets that added 
the tag in Japan:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32108345

The mapper concerned is fairly prolific and is still editing, but 
there's no reason to expect them to be able to understand a message in 
English.  I didn't include a machine translation because I've not been 
impressed with Japanese -> English machine translation, and I suspect 
that the other way would be just as much of a problem.


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)


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