Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. The TIGER import in the USA uses name_1 for alternate names. Perhaps we should view all tags starting with name as potential names? That points to using nameEN for the English name of a city, and nameDE for the German name of the same city, etc. Or should that be name:EN and name:DE? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. The TIGER import in the USA uses name_1 for alternate names. Perhaps we should view all tags starting with name as potential names? That points to using nameEN for the English name of a city, and nameDE for the German name of the same city, etc. Or should that be name:EN and name:DE? Alternative names, local names, multilingual names and all that stuff is covered already at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Naming Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 02:50:37PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. The TIGER import in the USA uses name_1 for alternate names. Perhaps we should view all tags starting with name as potential names? That points to using nameEN for the English name of a city, and nameDE for the German name of the same city, etc. Or should that be name:EN and name:DE? These already exist, see Key:name[1]. This doesn’t account for multiple names in the same language, though. I can also imagine a place having several old names over time, while old_name=* really only allows for one. In addition, where it wasn’t clear that an alternative name fit into one of the key variations, I have used alt_name. For example, I used alt_name for the second name on streets with multiple signs[2], until I learnt that they should be old_name=* [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name [2]: http://bleah.co.uk/~simon/photos/osm/multi-signage/mayford-mayfield.jpg Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 19:57 +, Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. Alternative names, local names, multilingual names and all that stuff is covered already at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Naming and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
Le 27 janv. 09 à 21:02, Simon Ward a écrit : This doesn’t account for multiple names in the same language, though. I can also imagine a place having several old names over time, while old_name=* really only allows for one. The general rule in OSM is that multiple values for a tag must be separated by a semicolon. Why would names be different than any other tag? Thus, a place where name has change multiple times should be written like this: old_name=old name;ye oldee name;oldish name ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. The TIGER import in the USA uses name_1 for alternate names. Perhaps we should view all tags starting with name as potential names? That points to using nameEN for the English name of a city, and nameDE for the German name of the same city, etc. Or should that be name:EN and name:DE? Alternative names, local names, multilingual names and all that stuff is covered already at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Naming that cover all cases. As an example the city Chemnitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitz) The german name was/is 1143-1953 Chemnitzname_old ? 1953–1990 Karl-Marx-Stadt name_old ? 1990Chemnitzname and Sorbian Kamjenica name:wen Czech Saská Kamenice name:cze Frank ___ Der fr�he Vogel f�ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
Simon Ward si...@bleah.co.uk writes: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 02:50:37PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: On Jan 27, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Manfred Podzkiewitz wrote: Hello, i have a question about the handling of unoffical, or ethnic, or historic names of towns and villages. The TIGER import in the USA uses name_1 for alternate names. Perhaps we should view all tags starting with name as potential names? That points to using nameEN for the English name of a city, and nameDE for the German name of the same city, etc. Or should that be name:EN and name:DE? These already exist, see Key:name[1]. This doesn’t account for multiple names in the same language, though. I can also imagine a place having several old names over time, while old_name=* really only allows for one. IMHO there really needs to be a well defined mechanism that allows a tag to have multiple values. To invent new keys like old_name_1 and old_name_2 is certainly not optimal. The FAQ has the recommendation of separating multiple values with a ';' and to enter a semicolon that is part of the data as ';;'. That's actually error prone if someone enters a semicolon who doesn't know about the rule. I think that should better be reversed or '\;' be used as separator because this is much less likely to appear in regular data. Of course it is also possible to use relations. But, for tags that simply add a property to an object (like old_name) this is overkill. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 04:36:08PM -0500, Matthias Julius wrote: This doesn’t account for multiple names in the same language, though. I can also imagine a place having several old names over time, while old_name=* really only allows for one. IMHO there really needs to be a well defined mechanism that allows a tag to have multiple values. To invent new keys like old_name_1 and old_name_2 is certainly not optimal. The FAQ has the recommendation of separating multiple values with a ';' and to enter a semicolon that is part of the data as ';;'. I think multiple keys with the same name should be allowed for a node/way/relation. AFAIK it’s only the editors that don’t currently let you do this. That's actually error prone if someone enters a semicolon who doesn't know about the rule. I think that should better be reversed or '\;' be used as separator because this is much less likely to appear in regular data. Almost any character could appear in regular data, unless it’s quite a special character—say, rather appropriately, the unit separator (US, ASCII 0x1f). The problem then is entering the special character. Ultimately the user should not have to care what, or if a, separator is used, and they would be presented with multiple values as appropriate for the interface they are using. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Simon Ward si...@bleah.co.uk wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 04:36:08PM -0500, Matthias Julius wrote: This doesn't account for multiple names in the same language, though. I can also imagine a place having several old names over time, while old_name=* really only allows for one. IMHO there really needs to be a well defined mechanism that allows a tag to have multiple values. To invent new keys like old_name_1 and old_name_2 is certainly not optimal. The FAQ has the recommendation of separating multiple values with a ';' and to enter a semicolon that is part of the data as ';;'. I think multiple keys with the same name should be allowed for a node/way/relation. AFAIK it's only the editors that don't currently let you do this. Yes, the API and data format supports it, but only for another 2 months or so until we switch to 0.6 where it won't be allowed. And -- to do some drive-by bikeshedding -- I think that leaves us with an unoptimal situation where editors either have to shove things into the same key delimited by some token like ; as is currently recommended but AFAIK not supported by any renderer (or any tool?), or to put what's logically the same data under different keys. Although the DB argument of having keys be primary keys is certainly understandable. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
Simon Ward si...@bleah.co.uk writes: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 04:36:08PM -0500, Matthias Julius wrote: That's actually error prone if someone enters a semicolon who doesn't know about the rule. I think that should better be reversed or '\;' be used as separator because this is much less likely to appear in regular data. Almost any character could appear in regular data, unless it’s quite a special character—say, rather appropriately, the unit separator (US, ASCII 0x1f). The problem then is entering the special character. While this is true, a key sequence like '\;' or '\\' should rarely be seen in nature. At least it should be a lot less likely than a single ';'. To be on the safe side we can use '/|\|/|\|/|\' or similar. ;-) Ultimately the user should not have to care what, or if a, separator is used, and they would be presented with multiple values as appropriate for the interface they are using. This is true, but AFAIK no editor supports that, yet. Until then it needs to be done manually. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Handling of towns with different or alternative names
Hi, The general rule in OSM is that multiple values for a tag must be separated by a semicolon. [..] Another general rule in OSM is that OSM only maps features that are _currently there_. Why should we bother with old city names. They are replaced and thus obsolete. There is no Leningrad any more. And so there is no Karl-Marx-Stadt. (Actually I do understand the need, but it is against OSM-politics - or is it now?) /Andreas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
