Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-18 16:53 GMT+01:00 Christoph Hormann :
>
> The 'in the corner of the map' is just a suggestion but it is generally
> understood that showing a note by default with any display containing a
> significant amount of OSM data is necessary, at minimum '(c)
> OpenStreetMap' with a link to the OSM copyright page.
>


/sarcasm on/
it does not actually matter, as it isn't enforced anyway
/sarcasm off/

If you look at Apple maps, the attribution reads "data by TomTom and
others" (one screen away from the map) and another screen further there is
an infinite list [1], which states that data is also from OSM (2011/2012)
(no copyright attribution there, but is probably cc-by-sa 2.0 looking at
the date) and "Map data © 2014 OpenStreetMap contributors" with link to
osm.org/copyright.

I have recently tried to raise awareness, but saying that other threads
have had more engagement is an understatement:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-November/008056.html

cheers,
Martin

[1] gspe21.ls.apple.com/html/attribution.html
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 18 December 2014, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
> I agree that continued reading would indicate that attribution should
> appear on the main map. But the way its worded is troubling. "as
> commonly seen..." I commonly see links as geocaching.com has
> provided. The wiki wording is giving an out from giving credit on the
> main page. I'd much rather see attribution on the map. Do you think
> rewording the wiki to make it clear that it must be on the front page
> would provide us better conformance?
>
> The geocaching.com site is pretty straight forward. They clearly use
> our base map with Mapquest tiles with an overlay of their own nodes.
> Others are less clear. OSM base maps with multiple overlays from
> other sources. At what point does the attribution get so cluttered
> that other forms to show credit are more practical?

The license is pretty clear here, the relevant part is in 4.3 of the 
ODbL:

You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably 
calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts 
with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content 
was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as 
part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this 
License

The 'in the corner of the map' is just a suggestion but it is generally 
understood that showing a note by default with any display containing a 
significant amount of OSM data is necessary, at minimum '(c) 
OpenStreetMap' with a link to the OSM copyright page.

The argument that this might lead to clutterring the display in cases 
where many data sources are used has also frequently been discussed 
already.  The main difference between OSM and other data providers is 
that for OSM the credits are the only form of gratification.  Therefore 
it is not as frivolous as it might seem at the first glance to demand 
something that would be impractical to give to all sources.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-18 16:18 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow :
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:09 AM, JB  wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, but I read there (same page, paragraph 3a, seems you stopped
>> reading too early) :
>> *For a **browsable electronic map** (e.g. embedded in a web page or
>> mobile phone application), the credit should appear in the corner of the
>> map, as commonly seen with map APIs/libraries such as Google Maps. *
>> So, no, it *should *be on the map.
>
>
> I agree that continued reading would indicate that attribution should
> appear on the main map.




I wonder what the legal status of this sentence is. There is no word in the
ODbL or the CT about these specific attribution requirements, and there are
very prominent users of our map data that don't satisfy this specification.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Clifford Snow]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:09 AM, JB  wrote:
>
> Sorry, but I read there (same page, paragraph 3a, seems you stopped
> reading too early) :
> *For a **browsable electronic map** (e.g. embedded in a web page or
> mobile phone application), the credit should appear in the corner of the
> map, as commonly seen with map APIs/libraries such as Google Maps. *
> So, no, it *should *be on the map.


I agree that continued reading would indicate that attribution should
appear on the main map. But the way its worded is troubling. "as commonly
seen..." I commonly see links as geocaching.com has provided. The wiki
wording is giving an out from giving credit on the main page. I'd much
rather see attribution on the map. Do you think rewording the wiki to make
it clear that it must be on the front page would provide us better
conformance?

The geocaching.com site is pretty straight forward. They clearly use our
base map with Mapquest tiles with an overlay of their own nodes. Others are
less clear. OSM base maps with multiple overlays from other sources. At
what point does the attribution get so cluttered that other forms to show
credit are more practical?

To me it is clear that geocache.com wants to credit OSM. Note only did they
credit OSM (thanks to Toby), but gave links on how to contribute.

There has been a call [1] for people to join the Working Groups. Maybe this
would be a good project for someone to undertake.

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2014-December/071586.html

Clifford

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[colliar]

Am 18.12.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:> Le 18/12/2014 00:02, Clifford Snow a
écrit :
>> According to the wiki [1] they may be properly attributing OSM.
>> Paragraph 3. They provided a link and they are treating us with the
>> same prominence as other map suppliers.
>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ
> So the fight began anyway. Sensitive subject.
> Sorry, but I read there (same page, paragraph 3a, seems you stopped
> reading too early) :
> /For a //*browsable electronic map*//(e.g. embedded in a web page or
> mobile phone application), the credit should appear in the corner of the
> map, as commonly seen with map APIs/libraries such as Google Maps. //
> /So, no, it /should /be on the map.

+1

So far we are talking about the map data, but they use tiles from all
kinds of OSM-Services. Thought these tiles are under some licences, too,
but do not find any mentioned. Not on the online map nor on the about page.

cu colliar


0xE8F56581.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[JB]

Le 18/12/2014 00:02, Clifford Snow a écrit :
According to the wiki [1] they may be properly attributing OSM. 
Paragraph 3. They provided a link and they are treating us with the 
same prominence as other map suppliers.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

So the fight began anyway. Sensitive subject.
Sorry, but I read there (same page, paragraph 3a, seems you stopped 
reading too early) :
/For a //*browsable electronic map*//(e.g. embedded in a web page or 
mobile phone application), the credit should appear in the corner of the 
map, as commonly seen with map APIs/libraries such as Google Maps. //

/So, no, it /should /be on the map.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Paul Johnson]

Awesome.  Figured it was a minor oversight, just wasn't quite in the right
frame to phrase it myself at that hour of the night and figured I would
forget.
On Dec 17, 2014 10:07 AM, "Toby Murray"  wrote:

> Has anyone tried contacting them yet? If not, I can. I've had good luck
> recently. I got geocaching.com to update their "About maps" page to
> reflect our new license and got the Kansas City Star to change the layout
> of their attribution so it wasn't hidden behind content any more. All it
> took was a quick note through their "contact us" forms.
>
> Toby
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Simone Cortesi 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Paul Johnson 
>> wrote:
>> > Just noticed this and took a quick glance, didn't see any obvious signs
>> that
>> > there was any attribution on the map at
>> >
>> http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/dui-case-omaha-police-arrest-man-who-was-driving-on/article_e660b1c6-8534-11e4-b4b3-1fa3417935b4.html
>> ,
>> > which after scrolling over to more familiar territory, definitely
>> appears to
>> > be from OpenStreetMap.
>> >
>> > Could we get a second pair of eyes on this and maybe someone in the area
>> > contact the paper about getting us some credit on that?
>>
>> as you ca see by looking at the source frame
>> http://omahacrimereport.com/mockingbird-hills/hbug
>> the data is undoubtedly OSM data. has worldwide coverage with clear
>> distinctive features in mapping. and maps tiles are provided by
>> stamen.
>>
>> --
>> -S
>>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Clifford Snow]

According to the wiki [1] they may be properly attributing OSM. Paragraph
3. They provided a link and they are treating us with the same prominence as
other map suppliers.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
>
> Well, I sent an email to the address listed on the "about" page and got a
> quick response. Apparently there was attribution originally but it somehow
> got dropped when they did a recent update. He understands open licensing
> and attribution and was very apologetic about it getting dropped. Hopefully
> it will be fixed soon.
>
> What I say when I send messages like this stresses the fact that we aren't
> just copyright pedants but that we view the attribution as a way to help us
> build our community which will in turn lead to a better map for them.
>
> Toby
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:30 AM, JB  wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where «
>>> © OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see
>>> anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their site.
>>> https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652&z=5
>>>
>>
>> Geocaching doesn't follow our recommendations, but they to give
>> attribution, as Toby pointed out on their about page. Not only that they
>> give links to start contributing to OSM. That might seem nice, but when you
>> look at their business practices, it says a lot. They make their money from
>> paid subscribers. Free subscribers get OSM maps, while paid subscribers get
>> to choose between OSM and Google. As we continue to build the worlds best
>> map, more people will decide free is actually a much better bargain.
>>
>> A few geocachers have attended our meetups, but I think most geocachers
>> are don't want to make better maps since the whole premise is to hide
>> something. Nothing worse that a map with a trail that leads directly to the
>> cache.
>>
>> BTW - I notice that they use state highway shields, at least in
>> Washington State. It would be nice to see us add shields to OSM.
>>
>> Clifford
>>
>>
>> --
>> @osm_seattle
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>
>
>
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Inge Wallin]

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 04:23:07 PM Toby Murray wrote:
> Well, I sent an email to the address listed on the "about" page and got a
> quick response. Apparently there was attribution originally but it somehow
> got dropped when they did a recent update. He understands open licensing
> and attribution and was very apologetic about it getting dropped. Hopefully
> it will be fixed soon.
> 
> What I say when I send messages like this stresses the fact that we aren't
> just copyright pedants but that we view the attribution as a way to help us
> build our community which will in turn lead to a better map for them.

You should send a reply to them saying that the penalty for missing this is to 
write an article about the OSM community.  *That* would be beneficial for the 
local community there.

-Inge


> Toby
> 
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Clifford Snow 
> 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:30 AM, JB  wrote:
> >> Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where « ©
> >> OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see
> >> anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their
> >> site.
> >> https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652&z=5> 
> > Geocaching doesn't follow our recommendations, but they to give
> > attribution, as Toby pointed out on their about page. Not only that they
> > give links to start contributing to OSM. That might seem nice, but when
> > you
> > look at their business practices, it says a lot. They make their money
> > from
> > paid subscribers. Free subscribers get OSM maps, while paid subscribers
> > get
> > to choose between OSM and Google. As we continue to build the worlds best
> > map, more people will decide free is actually a much better bargain.
> > 
> > A few geocachers have attended our meetups, but I think most geocachers
> > are don't want to make better maps since the whole premise is to hide
> > something. Nothing worse that a map with a trail that leads directly to
> > the
> > cache.
> > 
> > BTW - I notice that they use state highway shields, at least in Washington
> > State. It would be nice to see us add shields to OSM.
> > 
> > Clifford
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > @osm_seattle
> > osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> > OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Toby Murray]

Well, I sent an email to the address listed on the "about" page and got a
quick response. Apparently there was attribution originally but it somehow
got dropped when they did a recent update. He understands open licensing
and attribution and was very apologetic about it getting dropped. Hopefully
it will be fixed soon.

What I say when I send messages like this stresses the fact that we aren't
just copyright pedants but that we view the attribution as a way to help us
build our community which will in turn lead to a better map for them.

Toby

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:30 AM, JB  wrote:
>>
>> Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where « ©
>> OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see
>> anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their site.
>> https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652&z=5
>>
>
> Geocaching doesn't follow our recommendations, but they to give
> attribution, as Toby pointed out on their about page. Not only that they
> give links to start contributing to OSM. That might seem nice, but when you
> look at their business practices, it says a lot. They make their money from
> paid subscribers. Free subscribers get OSM maps, while paid subscribers get
> to choose between OSM and Google. As we continue to build the worlds best
> map, more people will decide free is actually a much better bargain.
>
> A few geocachers have attended our meetups, but I think most geocachers
> are don't want to make better maps since the whole premise is to hide
> something. Nothing worse that a map with a trail that leads directly to the
> cache.
>
> BTW - I notice that they use state highway shields, at least in Washington
> State. It would be nice to see us add shields to OSM.
>
> Clifford
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:30 AM, JB  wrote:
>
> Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where « ©
> OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see
> anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their site.
> https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652&z=5
>

Geocaching doesn't follow our recommendations, but they to give
attribution, as Toby pointed out on their about page. Not only that they
give links to start contributing to OSM. That might seem nice, but when you
look at their business practices, it says a lot. They make their money from
paid subscribers. Free subscribers get OSM maps, while paid subscribers get
to choose between OSM and Google. As we continue to build the worlds best
map, more people will decide free is actually a much better bargain.

A few geocachers have attended our meetups, but I think most geocachers are
don't want to make better maps since the whole premise is to hide
something. Nothing worse that a map with a trail that leads directly to the
cache.

BTW - I notice that they use state highway shields, at least in Washington
State. It would be nice to see us add shields to OSM.

Clifford


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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[JB]

Le 17/12/2014 17:06, Toby Murray a écrit :
I got geocaching.com  to update their "About 
maps" page to reflect our new license
Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where « 
© OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see 
anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their site.

https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652&z=5
JB.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Toby Murray]

Has anyone tried contacting them yet? If not, I can. I've had good luck
recently. I got geocaching.com to update their "About maps" page to reflect
our new license and got the Kansas City Star to change the layout of their
attribution so it wasn't hidden behind content any more. All it took was a
quick note through their "contact us" forms.

Toby

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Simone Cortesi  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> > Just noticed this and took a quick glance, didn't see any obvious signs
> that
> > there was any attribution on the map at
> >
> http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/dui-case-omaha-police-arrest-man-who-was-driving-on/article_e660b1c6-8534-11e4-b4b3-1fa3417935b4.html
> ,
> > which after scrolling over to more familiar territory, definitely
> appears to
> > be from OpenStreetMap.
> >
> > Could we get a second pair of eyes on this and maybe someone in the area
> > contact the paper about getting us some credit on that?
>
> as you ca see by looking at the source frame
> http://omahacrimereport.com/mockingbird-hills/hbug
> the data is undoubtedly OSM data. has worldwide coverage with clear
> distinctive features in mapping. and maps tiles are provided by
> stamen.
>
> --
> -S
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Simone Cortesi]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Just noticed this and took a quick glance, didn't see any obvious signs that
> there was any attribution on the map at
> http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/dui-case-omaha-police-arrest-man-who-was-driving-on/article_e660b1c6-8534-11e4-b4b3-1fa3417935b4.html,
> which after scrolling over to more familiar territory, definitely appears to
> be from OpenStreetMap.
>
> Could we get a second pair of eyes on this and maybe someone in the area
> contact the paper about getting us some credit on that?

as you ca see by looking at the source frame
http://omahacrimereport.com/mockingbird-hills/hbug
the data is undoubtedly OSM data. has worldwide coverage with clear
distinctive features in mapping. and maps tiles are provided by
stamen.

-- 
-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Hans De Kryger]

Hard to tell, my guess would be yes it's osm. Does leaflet power anything
besides osm? Sorry about that, forgot to hit reply all.

*Regards,*

*Hans*

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:59 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> Just noticed this and took a quick glance, didn't see any obvious signs
> that there was any attribution on the map at
> http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/dui-case-omaha-police-arrest-man-who-was-driving-on/article_e660b1c6-8534-11e4-b4b3-1fa3417935b4.html,
> which after scrolling over to more familiar territory, definitely appears
> to be from OpenStreetMap.
>
> Could we get a second pair of eyes on this and maybe someone in the area
> contact the paper about getting us some credit on that?
>
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