Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
On Tue, Dec 04, 2012 at 05:44:52PM -0800, Jeff Meyer wrote: What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM community? As for every source of information you have to evaluate how good that source ist, how current, how accurate. You have to see how the source got that information and put the information into a larger context. You can never just look at one source and be confident that the information you get is right. The OSM wiki is not that different from other sources of information. Only more so. :-) If you compare different source of information a telephone book might be on one end (simple, mostly accurate pieces of information easily understood), and the OSM wiki on the other (complex, often outdated and incomplete information that's hard to use). That might not be ideal, but that is what we have. What we do in the OSM project is difficult, often there are no simple answers. So don't expect them. You will have to search for answers and you'll often have to consult others who have been around longer. And keep in mind that the wiki is not only a source of information, it is also a place of collaboration. Like this mailing list and some other places. It is the participation in this community that gives you, in the long term, the best understanding of OSM and a broader perspective that helps you interpreting the information in the wiki and elsewhere. In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant? It is always relevant. Even if it is wrong. I'm hoping it's relevant as OSM continues to grow - reading through old email archives isn't super efficient (or clarifying). And the only way this situation is going to improve is when people like you take the information thats out there (for instance in this thread on the mailing list) and add it to the wiki. :-) I encourage everybody to participate in building the wiki. Yes, it is a lot of work. But it is the only way. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 08:37:50AM +0100, bruno wrote: On mer, 2012-12-05 at 05:49 +0100, Roland Olbricht wrote: - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ What if a new way of tagging something gets approved? The moment it becomes approved there will be probably 0 objects with the new tags, and if someone follows this principle (from what I see, this is exactly what happens) the new tags won't be used, rendering useless the discussion and approving of the new tags*. They *are* mostly useless. Many people think they are important and they have succeeded in convincing other that they are. But they are not. What *is* important is how people actually tag things and how those thing are actually used to produce maps. I'm probably a too novice mapper to appreciate the freedom this tag as you see fit approach gives me, I usually feel like couldn't they just compromise on ONE way of tagging this? what if I tag it wrong?, but that's probably my fault... Thats not your fault. It is our fault, our in this case meaning the old timers fault, for not explaining it right. Yes, it would be nice if we could decide on how things should be done in some forum, discuss everything in theory and then go out into the world and do things. Unfortunately this doesn't work. The world is more complex than any plans we make. The way we do things in OSM might be messy, but it has proven to work. OSM is here, OSM does produce usable maps. The way tagging is done is just a reflection of how complex the world is. And yes, it could be a bit less messy. It could be a bit easier. And many many people have been working on it to make it easier. But it is a long process. And everybodies help is appreciated. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
2012/12/5 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com: Roland Olbricht writes: In general: the wiki is only descriptive, but often it sounds normative. It is a good idea to - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ +1, but only for what they are defined, the mere existence of a tag doesn't automatically imply it was invented for the feature you are going to map. If your feature doesn't fit perfectly with the description of a tag it is better to not use this tag. - search the wiki for keywords of the thing to tag - read the relevant pages and take them as advice, not as a law +1 - if the pages don't make sense to you or don't match, ask at http://help.openstreetmap.org and or on the mailing lists (i.e. tagging ML) - add an additional, new tag if the often used tags don't describe the situation appropriately +1 My rule of thumb is: 1) If the wiki describes a tag, tag according to the description. 2) If the wiki is silent on a tag, then feel free to add it. 3) If the wiki describes something, and you think there's a better way, then feel free to tag that way, but follow rule #1 and #2. 4) But never change what the wiki says, because the people who came before you followed rules #1, #2, and #3. +1 I'd like to add that when in doubt or something looks strange in the wiki it is often useful to have a look at the history of the page: maybe someone recently introduced contradicting or otherwise strange advice that isn't in line with the established meaning of a tag (or way to map). This happens from time to time, and usually it gets reverted or otherwise sorted out after a short time, but maybe you just found the page between those 2 actions ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
2012/12/5 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com: Roland Olbricht writes: In general: the wiki is only descriptive, but often it sounds normative. It is a good idea to - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ +1, but only for what they are defined, the mere existence of a tag doesn't automatically imply it was invented for the feature you are going to map. If your feature doesn't fit perfectly with the description of a tag it is better to not use this tag. - search the wiki for keywords of the thing to tag - read the relevant pages and take them as advice, not as a law +1 - if the pages don't make sense to you or don't match, ask at http://help.openstreetmap.org and or on the mailing lists (i.e. tagging ML) - add an additional, new tag if the often used tags don't describe the situation appropriately +1 My rule of thumb is: 1) If the wiki describes a tag, tag according to the description. 2) If the wiki is silent on a tag, then feel free to add it. 3) If the wiki describes something, and you think there's a better way, then feel free to tag that way, but follow rule #1 and #2. 4) But never change what the wiki says, because the people who came before you followed rules #1, #2, and #3. +1 I'd like to add that when in doubt or something looks strange in the wiki it is often useful to have a look at the history, maybe someone recently introduced contradicting or otherwise strange advice that isn't in line with the established meaning of a tag (or way to map). This happens frequently, and usually it gets reverted or otherwise sorted out after a short time, but maybe you just found the page between those 2 actions. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
Hi, what if I tag it wrong? There is no right or wrong tagging. When you tag, you tell all data users a message. And either they understand you or they don't. There are things that are easy to tell like street names, because this is completely formal. There are things that are not formal at all and difficult to tell (e.g. street importance, although displayed prominently on the map). And things that could be formal but being formalized different in different regions because they are factual different in different regions (e.g. speed limit systematics, seasonal infrastructure, may bicycles run against a one-way direction?, various facets of public transport). That's the point where the wiki could show it's value: make a systematic tagging for your region and then explain the subtle details of this tagging in a dedicated wiki page such that a foreigner can make sense of the tagging. What if a new way of tagging something gets approved? The moment it becomes approved there will be probably 0 objects with the new tags, and if someone follows this principle (from what I see, this is exactly what happens) the new tags won't be used, rendering useless the discussion and approving of the new tags*. That's exactly the problem. The proposal concept errorneously conveys the idea that tagging-schemes are somehow designed and standardized and then afterwards applied to real world. This fails notoriously inside and outside OSM because reality quite often tends to not fit into any formal scheme. The best practice is to first observe the facts in the real. Then tell it other mappers and data consumers. This includes tagging it to enable other mappers to understand the local situation as well as afterwards documenting it on the wiki. This may or may not end up with the discovery that a similar problem has already appeared elsewhere. That is the helpful process of the discussion. If the a retagging is necessary at all, then the discussion process will turn out which old tag shall be mapped on which new tag. The actual mapping is then done very easily by software. So the important message is: The wiki comes into play only after observing reality and tagging it in some way, even if that tagging is not the final way. Hence a proposal having 0 known examples is not a transitional state, but very likely useless. Cheers, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
From: bruno [mailto:br...@anche.no] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki On mer, 2012-12-05 at 05:49 +0100, Roland Olbricht wrote: - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ What if a new way of tagging something gets approved? The moment it becomes approved there will be probably 0 objects with the new tags, and if someone follows this principle (from what I see, this is exactly what happens) the new tags won't be used, rendering useless the discussion and approving of the new tags*. It's important to remember that a tag that is approved is not approved for use in OSM. There are no tags approved for use in OSM. All an approved tag on the wiki means is that it is approved to be listed as an approved tag. The OSM tagging system has its flaws but by and large it works. It sometimes takes longer than desirable to reach a consensus on tagging but as long as no one stacks the deck by doing a mechanical edit or import where there isn't general agreement the voting on tags is done in the database, influenced by presets, renderer support and wiki documentation. If I had to pick the four issues I commonly see with wiki tag proposals it is that no consideration is given to 1. Support by renderers or data consumers. Anything that data consumers cannot parse will only ever be seen by other mappers editing the DB. People like to see the results of their mapping, schemas which cannot be used by consumers are unlikely to gain much traction. 2. Issues with complicated data models that cannot be tagged by people who don't have expertise in that particular sub-area. 3. The practicality of implementing presets. If you design some complicated relation-based tagging schema unlike anything else, it's not going to get added as a preset to the editors and won't end up used by most people. 4. Backwards compatibility. /rant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
Hi, In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant? Yes, please have a look at http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ If a tag appears there in quite large numbers, it is relevant. Otherwise it is not relevant. Whatever the wiki tells you is rather irrelevant. What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM community? You need to be careful. Beside the people who do real mapping and often have left an initially useful description in the wiki, a lot of people care for their pet wiki page, with mixed results. Thus, the wiki is often far from reality, both leaving open real world problems and devoting broad space to things that simply never happen in reality. In general: the wiki is only descriptive, but often it sounds normative. It is a good idea to - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ - search the wiki for keywords of the thing to tag - read the relevant pages and take them as advice, not as a law - if the pages don't make sense to you or don't match, ask at http://help.openstreetmap.org - add an additional, new tag if the often used tags don't describe the situation appropriately I'm hoping it's relevant as OSM continues to grow - reading through old email archives isn't super efficient (or clarifying). The general outline is - discussion happens on the mailing list - decision taking is ultimately done by the inidividual mapper - documentation happens at the wiki Cheers, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
Roland Olbricht writes: In general: the wiki is only descriptive, but often it sounds normative. It is a good idea to - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ - search the wiki for keywords of the thing to tag - read the relevant pages and take them as advice, not as a law - if the pages don't make sense to you or don't match, ask at http://help.openstreetmap.org - add an additional, new tag if the often used tags don't describe the situation appropriately My rule of thumb is: 1) If the wiki describes a tag, tag according to the description. 2) If the wiki is silent on a tag, then feel free to add it. 3) If the wiki describes something, and you think there's a better way, then feel free to tag that way, but follow rule #1 and #2. 4) But never change what the wiki says, because the people who came before you followed rules #1, #2, and #3. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
The info about tagging is helpful, but I'm also curious about the role of other parts of the wiki, too. The sounding normative vs. being normative distinctions is... subtle? to the under-initiated. On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Roland Olbricht writes: In general: the wiki is only descriptive, but often it sounds normative. It is a good idea to - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ - search the wiki for keywords of the thing to tag - read the relevant pages and take them as advice, not as a law - if the pages don't make sense to you or don't match, ask at http://help.openstreetmap.org - add an additional, new tag if the often used tags don't describe the situation appropriately My rule of thumb is: 1) If the wiki describes a tag, tag according to the description. 2) If the wiki is silent on a tag, then feel free to add it. 3) If the wiki describes something, and you think there's a better way, then feel free to tag that way, but follow rule #1 and #2. 4) But never change what the wiki says, because the people who came before you followed rules #1, #2, and #3. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Role of the Wiki
On mer, 2012-12-05 at 05:49 +0100, Roland Olbricht wrote: - use tags or tag keys that have been used quite often http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ What if a new way of tagging something gets approved? The moment it becomes approved there will be probably 0 objects with the new tags, and if someone follows this principle (from what I see, this is exactly what happens) the new tags won't be used, rendering useless the discussion and approving of the new tags*. I'm probably a too novice mapper to appreciate the freedom this tag as you see fit approach gives me, I usually feel like couldn't they just compromise on ONE way of tagging this? what if I tag it wrong?, but that's probably my fault... /bruno * Yes, I'm talking about public_transport -- CONTACTS http://tracciabi.li/~bruno/contacts.html 2nd email br...@tracciabi.li GNU/Linux registered user #121507 http://linuxcounter.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
