Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Alex Mauer
Karl Newman wrote:
 Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the 
 usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even 
 small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here 
 would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on 
 the Wiki.

I've never heard a non-navigable waterway referred to as a canal, here 
in the Midwest USA.  I've only what you're describing called a drainage 
ditch (as you said) or irrigation ditch depending on their intended 
purpose. ditch is IMO a reasonable combination of the two (since the 
intended purpose is generally not immediately obvious)

-Alex Mauer hawke


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Shaun McDonald

On 16 May 2008, at 16:50, Alex Mauer wrote:

 Karl Newman wrote:
 Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US,  
 the
 usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and  
 even
 small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one  
 here
 would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on
 the Wiki.

 I've never heard a non-navigable waterway referred to as a canal, here
 in the Midwest USA.  I've only what you're describing called a  
 drainage
 ditch (as you said) or irrigation ditch depending on their intended
 purpose. ditch is IMO a reasonable combination of the two (since the
 intended purpose is generally not immediately obvious)


I have the only remaining part of the Croydon canal near me. It is  
only a few hundred metres long, and is now left to nature. A century  
ago the other parts of the canal were filled in and changed to railway.

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Alex Mauer
Shaun McDonald wrote:
 I have the only remaining part of the Croydon canal near me. It is  
 only a few hundred metres long, and is now left to nature. A century  
 ago the other parts of the canal were filled in and changed to railway.

Presumably that's only called a canal for historical reasons then?

-Alex Mauer hawke


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Karl Newman
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Alex Mauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Karl Newman wrote:
  Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the
  usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even
  small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here
  would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on
  the Wiki.

 I've never heard a non-navigable waterway referred to as a canal, here
 in the Midwest USA.  I've only what you're describing called a drainage
 ditch (as you said) or irrigation ditch depending on their intended
 purpose. ditch is IMO a reasonable combination of the two (since the
 intended purpose is generally not immediately obvious)

 -Alex Mauer hawke


If you do a search for irrigation canal or drainage canal you'll see
plenty of images that show the kinds of waterways I'm thinking of. Many
could be called a ditch, but canal is commonly used too (around here in
California anyway). Interestingly, Wikipedia refers to an aqueduct as a
specialized kind of canal for supplying water.

Karl
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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Shaun McDonald

On 16 May 2008, at 18:12, Alex Mauer wrote:

 Shaun McDonald wrote:
 I have the only remaining part of the Croydon canal near me. It is
 only a few hundred metres long, and is now left to nature. A century
 ago the other parts of the canal were filled in and changed to  
 railway.

 Presumably that's only called a canal for historical reasons then?


Yes. Is there anything wron with that?

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Alex Mauer
Shaun McDonald wrote:
 Presumably that's only called a canal for historical reasons then?

 
 Yes. Is there anything wron with that?

Nope.  I was just that I was wondering if it had some reason beyond its 
physical characteristics for being tagged as a canal.

On the other hand, it might be better to just not tag it as a canal 
(just giving it the relevant name of Croyden canal instead) so that 
someone expecting a navigable waterway isn't disappointed.

-Alex Mauer hawke


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-16 Thread Shaun McDonald

On 16 May 2008, at 21:37, OJ W wrote:

 I'm still interested in this definition of aquaeduct though, since the
 wikipedia definition of man-made water-carrying thingie differs from
 OSM's definition of waterway on a bridge


My definition of a canal is some waterway on a bridge.

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain is not. A
canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting water
much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than nature.
Drains can be anything from quite narrow watercourses to very large
constructions depending on how much water they carry.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raphael Studer
Sent: 14 May 2008 12:01 PM
To: OSM Talk List
Subject: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

Hi,

As a not native english speaker, I'm looking for the difference between
canal (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:waterway%3Dcanal)
and
drain (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain).

By looking at the Map Features, there are nearly the same.

Canal: An artificial open waterway used for transportation,
waterpower, or irrigation
Drain: An artificial waterway for carrying storm water or industrial
discharge.


Thanks for your help.

Raphael

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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\) wrote:

 Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain is not. A
 canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting water
 much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than nature.

Indeed.

Sometimes drains, though built principally for irrigation/drainage,  
are later used for navigation as well - in the UK, the Middle Level  
(Cambridgeshire) and Witham Navigable Drains (Lincolnshire) are  
probably the two best examples. I'd tag these as waterway=drain,  
boat=yes.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Raphael Studer
 Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain is not. A
 canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting water
 much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than nature.
 Drains can be anything from quite narrow watercourses to very large
 constructions depending on how much water they carry.

So first criteria would be: a man made waterway,
secondary: navigable (so it would be a question of size of canal
and/or bridges).

If thats correct, I'd like if someone with a good english could add
this hint on the Map_Features page.

Regards,
Raphael

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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Rory McCann
Karl Newman wrote:
 Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the 
 usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even 
 small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here 
 would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on 
 the Wiki.

So what do you call the big man made 'rivers' that barges go down?

Rory

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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Karl Newman
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Rory McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Karl Newman wrote:

 Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the
 usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even
 small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here
 would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on the
 Wiki.


 So what do you call the big man made 'rivers' that barges go down?

 Rory


I did say *almost* never. Certainly there are large navigable canals (more
common in the Eastern US) but if you were to look at the sum total of all
the waterways called canals here, the navigable ones would make up a tiny
portion.

Karl
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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Lester Caine
Karl Newman wrote:
 Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain
 is not. A
 canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting
 water
 much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than nature.
 Drains can be anything from quite narrow watercourses to very large
 constructions depending on how much water they carry.
 
 Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the 
 usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even 
 small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here 
 would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on 
 the Wiki.

In the US am I right in thinking that storm water drains may only have actual 
water in them under flood conditions. From what I remember of car chases in 
films ;)

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Karl Newman
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Karl Newman wrote:
  Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain
  is not. A
  canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting
  water
  much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than
 nature.
  Drains can be anything from quite narrow watercourses to very large
  constructions depending on how much water they carry.
 
  Wow, that's not obvious to the casual (non-UK) observer. In the US, the
  usage of canal is different. They're almost never navigable, and even
  small drainage ditches are commonly called canals. Almost no-one here
  would call any kind of waterway a drain. Definitely clarify that on
  the Wiki.

 In the US am I right in thinking that storm water drains may only have
 actual
 water in them under flood conditions. From what I remember of car chases in
 films ;)

 --
 Lester Caine - G8HFL


In certain cases, yes. It depends on the season and the location. In a
drainage canal near my house (would be called a stream if it were natural),
the water stops flowing in summer, but there are generally pools in certain
areas that hold water year round. Some drainage ditches are concrete, but
most aren't--they're just cuts in the earth; sometimes they're elevated
above the surrounding terrain with berms on either side (these are more
commonly used for irrigation, not so much for drainage). Generally only
certain large cities have the big concrete canals suitable for car chases.
;-)

Karl
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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Shaun McDonald

On 14 May 2008, at 17:18, Karl Newman wrote:

 [..]
 In certain cases, yes. It depends on the season and the location. In  
 a drainage canal near my house (would be called a stream if it were  
 natural), the water stops flowing in summer, but there are generally  
 pools in certain areas that hold water year round. Some drainage  
 ditches are concrete, but most aren't--they're just cuts in the  
 earth; sometimes they're elevated above the surrounding terrain with  
 berms on either side (these are more commonly used for irrigation,  
 not so much for drainage). Generally only certain large cities have  
 the big concrete canals suitable for car chases. ;-)


If it's just a cutting with no concrete, then it would just be a ditch.

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread OJ W
So would the california aqueduct be a 'drain' under that definition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tupman_California_California_Aqueduct_Mile_236.JPG

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.4868lon=-121.0883zoom=12layers=0BFT

(currently taged as 'river')


On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Both are created by man. A canal is normally navigable and a drain is not. A
 canal is for carrying goods and people, a drain is for transporting water
 much like a river but the drain has been dug by man rather than nature.
 Drains can be anything from quite narrow watercourses to very large
 constructions depending on how much water they carry.

 Hope this helps.

 Cheers
 Andy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raphael Studer
Sent: 14 May 2008 12:01 PM
To: OSM Talk List
Subject: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

Hi,

As a not native english speaker, I'm looking for the difference between
canal (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:waterway%3Dcanal)
and
drain (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain).

By looking at the Map Features, there are nearly the same.

Canal: An artificial open waterway used for transportation,
waterpower, or irrigation
Drain: An artificial waterway for carrying storm water or industrial
discharge.


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Re: [OSM-talk] difference between waterway=canal and waterway=drain

2008-05-14 Thread Stephen Hope
What is your definition of an artificial waterway?  Dug and designed
by man?  Made of non-natural materials?

Near me a few years ago was an open marshy field that was fed by a
stream, with a stream exiting.

Now the developers have put houses up in the field.  They brought in
dirt and raised the ground level, dug a connection between the entry
and exit streams and landscaped around it. Is it a stream or a drain?
It's not concrete (except for one bridge area), it looks like a
stream, but it is man made.

Stephen

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