Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-23 Thread Madhav Vodnala 
>> I'm curious about your uses for this.  In what kind of situation would
>> somebody know a runway code but not what airport?  

if you download OSM data (using the API) within a bounding box, you will get
nodes,
ways, and relations within that bounding box. One of the ways
can be a runway. The airport node can be outside that bounding box.

Now in order to know the airport name, the bounding box
needs to padded up and the download API needs to be rerun.

This is exactly what am doing right now. It's not bad either, because
the second API call runs on my local OSM source which contains only the
airports.

I agree with your other notes. This is a very generic problem.
Not sure how others have solved this issue with other entities
you mentioned. 


Thanks
Madhav

-Original Message-
From: Alan Millar [mailto:a...@bolis.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:21 PM
To: Madhav Vodnala
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

> All that runway 'way' XML contains is one tag
> that says it's a runway. The problem is there is no easy way to
> correlate a runway to its airport.

This is a generalized problem that reaches far beyond just runways.  For
any given way (of any kind), how do you associate it or characterize it as
belonging to a larger area?  An airport is a larger area, even if it has
only be marked as a node in OSM; that is just a shortcut placeholder for
the area.

You certainly could use a relation.  That seems like a lot of work to me. 
I would suggest looking at the ways other people have done it for other
entities in OSM.  How do you know a bike trail belongs to a park?  How do
you know a street belongs to a town?  How do you know a foot path belongs
to a university campus?  The simple answer for all of them is the
geometry.  Short of that, the "is_in" tag is the most common one in use
for this sort of thing.

But really, matching geometry will be the simplest.  You will pretty much
always find the aerodrome area or node within 0.0020 degrees lat/lon of
the runway, and most often within 0.0012 degrees, based on my experience
in looking at them in OSM.  It's not a visual problem, it's a math
problem, and it's already been solved by others.  Sort by distance, it
becomes quite obvious which airport the runway belongs to.  You can google
for the calculations; you don't need to understand them to paste them into
your script.  (I don't understand the math, but it still works great for
me.)

> For eg. Entering 30L in a search window should bring up "SJC" as
> the result. Note there can be multiple runways named 30L.

Multiple?  You bet.  You're going to have a dozen or more.  There are only
18 number sets to work with, plus L or R and sometimes C.  If the runway
is correctly named, it will be "12R/30L".  12R will always be the same
runway as 30L.  If you search for "30", you're likely to get a hundred
matches or more.

I've drawn or verified runways on about 3000 airports so far, and I think
there are about 5000 or more airports listed in the English wikipedia. 
That's going to be a long search list.

I'm curious about your uses for this.  In what kind of situation would
somebody know a runway code but not what airport?  Perhaps there is other
information or other ways to solve the problem that could help.

Good luck on the project!

- Alan



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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-23 Thread Alan Millar 
> All that runway 'way' XML contains is one tag
> that says it's a runway. The problem is there is no easy way to
> correlate a runway to its airport.

This is a generalized problem that reaches far beyond just runways.  For
any given way (of any kind), how do you associate it or characterize it as
belonging to a larger area?  An airport is a larger area, even if it has
only be marked as a node in OSM; that is just a shortcut placeholder for
the area.

You certainly could use a relation.  That seems like a lot of work to me. 
I would suggest looking at the ways other people have done it for other
entities in OSM.  How do you know a bike trail belongs to a park?  How do
you know a street belongs to a town?  How do you know a foot path belongs
to a university campus?  The simple answer for all of them is the
geometry.  Short of that, the "is_in" tag is the most common one in use
for this sort of thing.

But really, matching geometry will be the simplest.  You will pretty much
always find the aerodrome area or node within 0.0020 degrees lat/lon of
the runway, and most often within 0.0012 degrees, based on my experience
in looking at them in OSM.  It's not a visual problem, it's a math
problem, and it's already been solved by others.  Sort by distance, it
becomes quite obvious which airport the runway belongs to.  You can google
for the calculations; you don't need to understand them to paste them into
your script.  (I don't understand the math, but it still works great for
me.)

> For eg. Entering 30L in a search window should bring up "SJC" as
> the result. Note there can be multiple runways named 30L.

Multiple?  You bet.  You're going to have a dozen or more.  There are only
18 number sets to work with, plus L or R and sometimes C.  If the runway
is correctly named, it will be "12R/30L".  12R will always be the same
runway as 30L.  If you search for "30", you're likely to get a hundred
matches or more.

I've drawn or verified runways on about 3000 airports so far, and I think
there are about 5000 or more airports listed in the English wikipedia. 
That's going to be a long search list.

I'm curious about your uses for this.  In what kind of situation would
somebody know a runway code but not what airport?  Perhaps there is other
information or other ways to solve the problem that could help.

Good luck on the project!

- Alan



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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-23 Thread Madhav Vodnala 
All that runway 'way' XML contains is one tag
that says it's a runway. The problem is there is no easy way to 
correlate a runway to its airport.

The wiki convention does not create any problem for visual map style
applications,
because they have spatial awareness.

The problem is for non-visual applications, especially the one am working
on.

I created an OSM file/table that contains only runways in the world. Another
OSM file contains only airports. Am looking for an easy locate
the airport for a given runway.

For eg. Entering 30L in a search window should bring up "SJC" as
the result. Note there can be multiple runways named 30L.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

Thanks
Madhav

-Original Message-
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org]
On Behalf Of Alan Millar
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:26 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

> In this Mapping Features documentation page, it says add only
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aeroway> aeroway=runway  tag to
> the
> way to denote it
> a runway
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Drunway

> Does anybody have an alternative solution?. I think adding new "relation"
> can address
> this issue.

Can you explain what exactly is the problem or issue you are concerned
about?  In the example you gave, it looked like two clearly marked
runways. I don't see any problems with them.

The "aeroway=aerodrome" tag can be used on either a node or an area.  Most
of the time it is a node placed near the center of the airport.  When it
is used on an area, it marks the grounds or boundary of the airport.

For example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5024354

I don't think it is a good idea to put the iata or icao codes on the
runway, because they really apply to the whole place.  They should go on
the aeroway=aerodrome item (node or area) like the wiki says.

- Alan




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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-23 Thread Simon Hewison 
Madhav Vodnala wrote:
> This is a good idea. Is ICAO code same as the airport code as identified 
> by US DOT?.

ICAO codes are international, and cover all licenced airfields 
worldwide. They are four letters long.

Those DOT codes seem to be the same three letter codes as the IATA codes 
(which passengers and travel agents book tickets with), and in the USA, 
you can easily convert IATA to ICAO codes by prefixing with the letter 
K, so LAX becomes KLAX. Pilots and Air Traffic Controllers use ICAO codes.

In the rest of the world, it's not so easy, so EGLL is LHR = London 
Heathrow. (E tends to denote Europe, so EG = Europe, Great Britain). 
Someone once told me there was some reasoning behind the name of the 
ICAO codes, but it escaped me, and they couldn't name it at the time. 
France is LF (La France), Germany is ED (Europa Deutschland). eg . FRA = 
EDDF = Frankfurt am Main

--
Simon Hewison

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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-23 Thread Alan Millar 
> In this Mapping Features documentation page, it says add only
>  aeroway=runway  tag to
> the
> way to denote it
> a runway
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Drunway

> Does anybody have an alternative solution?. I think adding new "relation"
> can address
> this issue.

Can you explain what exactly is the problem or issue you are concerned
about?  In the example you gave, it looked like two clearly marked
runways. I don't see any problems with them.

The "aeroway=aerodrome" tag can be used on either a node or an area.  Most
of the time it is a node placed near the center of the airport.  When it
is used on an area, it marks the grounds or boundary of the airport.

For example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5024354

I don't think it is a good idea to put the iata or icao codes on the
runway, because they really apply to the whole place.  They should go on
the aeroway=aerodrome item (node or area) like the wiki says.

- Alan




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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-22 Thread Madhav Vodnala 
This is a good idea. Is ICAO code same as the airport code as identified by
US DOT?.US DOT provides a lot of useful information on the world airports.
http://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp?Table_ID=288&DB_Short_Name=Aviation%20Support%20Tables

"relation" definitely seems unnecessary here.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:12 AM, OJ W  wrote:

> in commercial nav data, the runways contain a tag with the airport's ICAO
> code
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-22 Thread OJ W 
in commercial nav data, the runways contain a tag with the airport's ICAO code

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Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome

2009-06-22 Thread Andy Allan 
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Madhav Vodnala wrote:
> Hi Guys
>
> In this Mapping Features documentation page, it says add only
>  aeroway=runway  tag to the way to denote it
> a runway
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Drunway
>
> As a result, you will see runways as the following.
>
> I have not yet checked it out, but it looks like the only way is to traverse
> all the nodes.
>
>
>
> Does anybody have an alternative solution?. I think adding new "relation"
> can address
> this issue.

There's no need for a new relations, that I can see. All the runways
have latitudes and longitudes, as do the airports. Does anyone know of
a runway that belongs to airport A but is closer to airport B? Even if
that was to happen, it could easily be sorted by putting in the
airport perimeters and working out which airport perimeter goes around
the runway in question.

In short: OSM is spatial, not everything needs to be a relation.

Cheers,
Andy

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