Re: [talk-au] Wild guess surveying

[Darrin Smith]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:35:01 +0900
"Andrew Laughton"  wrote:

> Yes, very easy to fix, and I have fixed other roads that were also
> wrong, the worry is, how many others need fixing and where are they.
> Maybe a polite message could solve the problem, or maybe a rough
> position is better than no position, and there is no problem.

I think there's actually 2 issues you've hit on in this. One you
outline here and the other is the issue of what the original author
used as a source for the estimation.

On the issue you have listed here I'd suggest at some level it would
be a good thing to have rough estimations drawn in, at least for major
features (which landsat can provide if nothing else), an empty block of
map just doesn't help anyone at all really. Data can always get more
accurate as time goes by as someone with more specific information
refines the paths, much like you are doing in this case. When new data
obviously over-rides older data in the map people should not have
hesitation correcting things.

The other issue is a potentially nastier one, especially given that
landsat supports something approximating the traces you made in this
case, I worry that your suspicions may be correct, or perhaps that the
person who drew it in based it upon personal experience from a long
time ago (dodgy source at best ;). I think a polite message suggesting
that you are concerned about the source of his data might not go astray
in this case.

-- 
Darrin Smith
s...@salseast.org

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Re: [talk-au] Wild guess surveying

[Andrew Laughton]

Yes, very easy to fix, and I have fixed other roads that were also
wrong, the worry is, how many others need fixing and where are they.
Maybe a polite message could solve the problem, or maybe a rough
position is better than no position, and there is no problem.


2008/12/15 Ross Scanlon :
> Easily fixed then.
>
> Upgrade the road to your trace.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:23:26 +0900
> "Andrew Laughton"  wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> This might be just a survey with long gaps between points, but my
>> Whereis based GPS also has the same road layout.
>> I am a little worried that someone has copied another map, complete with 
>> faults.
>> Look at my trace relative to what the road is drawn at.
>>
>> Is "Drewboy" in this forum ?
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-32.30935&lon=116.6188&zoom=15
>>
>> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Brookton+Hwy+WA,+Australia&sll=-32.933423,117.176404&sspn=0.049202,0.072527&g=Narrogin+WA,+Australia&ie=UTF8&ll=-32.310331,116.616011&spn=0.012386,0.027294&z=16
>>
>> http://www.whereis.com/wa/westdale/irish-rd?id=4A15D99A141317
>>
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Re: [talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?

[Ian Sergeant]

The primary questions here is:



My position is a node for three reasons..

+ When you cross this kind of roundabout when cycling, or with a learner
driver, you don't have to worry about the characteristics of the road you
are crossing (since you never turn into the traffic of the cross road, you
just cross the roundabout).  This isn't just about cyclists and learners.
Its about the nature of the intersection.

+ It represents what is on the ground accurately.  Often there is less of
an actual diversion than many other traffic calming devices, which are not
mapped.  To draw it as a deviation in the road, just isn't what is there.

+ These have a very standardised appearance, and should be represented in a
standardised way, like a template.  The benefit isn't just in time-saving,
but in identifying that all these roundabouts are very much the same.

Once this is decided there are other questions to answer...







Many of the points in this argument aren't being made against having some
types of roundabouts mapped as a node, but rather are arguments against
overloading tags that mean something else outside of Australia.

Other arguments are saying that the current definition is poor.

I can agree with these arguments, to a certain extent.  (Although I think
people arguing against overloading tags have a bigger campaign on their
hands than just mini-roundabouts.)  However, before we can get to them, we
need to decide if this kind of roundabout is best represented by a node, or
a loop.  Then progress to what, if anything, the tag should be.

Ian.


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Re: [talk-au] Wild guess surveying

[Ross Scanlon]

Easily fixed then.

Upgrade the road to your trace.



On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:23:26 +0900
"Andrew Laughton"  wrote:

> Hi All
> 
> This might be just a survey with long gaps between points, but my
> Whereis based GPS also has the same road layout.
> I am a little worried that someone has copied another map, complete with 
> faults.
> Look at my trace relative to what the road is drawn at.
> 
> Is "Drewboy" in this forum ?
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-32.30935&lon=116.6188&zoom=15
> 
> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Brookton+Hwy+WA,+Australia&sll=-32.933423,117.176404&sspn=0.049202,0.072527&g=Narrogin+WA,+Australia&ie=UTF8&ll=-32.310331,116.616011&spn=0.012386,0.027294&z=16
> 
> http://www.whereis.com/wa/westdale/irish-rd?id=4A15D99A141317
> 
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Re: [talk-au] Wild guess surveying

[Liz]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Andrew Laughton wrote:
> Hi All
>
> This might be just a survey with long gaps between points, but my
> Whereis based GPS also has the same road layout.
> I am a little worried that someone has copied another map, complete with
> faults. Look at my trace relative to what the road is drawn at.
>
> Is "Drewboy" in this forum ?
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-32.30935&lon=116.6188&zoom=15
>
> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Brookton+Hwy+WA,+Austra
>lia&sll=-32.933423,117.176404&sspn=0.049202,0.072527&g=Narrogin+WA,+Australi
>a&ie=UTF8&ll=-32.310331,116.616011&spn=0.012386,0.027294&z=16
>
> http://www.whereis.com/wa/westdale/irish-rd?id=4A15D99A141317
>
Looks like a road realignment has occurred - maybe up to 20 years ago and the 
old maps don't show it.
It is suspicious that someone has copied the old road alignment from those 
maps.




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[talk-au] Wild guess surveying

[Andrew Laughton]

Hi All

This might be just a survey with long gaps between points, but my
Whereis based GPS also has the same road layout.
I am a little worried that someone has copied another map, complete with faults.
Look at my trace relative to what the road is drawn at.

Is "Drewboy" in this forum ?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-32.30935&lon=116.6188&zoom=15

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Brookton+Hwy+WA,+Australia&sll=-32.933423,117.176404&sspn=0.049202,0.072527&g=Narrogin+WA,+Australia&ie=UTF8&ll=-32.310331,116.616011&spn=0.012386,0.027294&z=16

http://www.whereis.com/wa/westdale/irish-rd?id=4A15D99A141317

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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Sean]

Is this the intersection you are talking about?  It's in Griffith right?

http://www.lizarddrinking.net/images/OSM.JPG

If it is, it's still a loop way as you can see in the pics.  Maybe the 
text you saw was where the roundabout way joins up to the Hillam Drive 
way.  To get a screen shots of your GPS you will have to use a program 
called xImage.  You can download it from Garmin's website 
http://www8.garmin.com/support/agree.jsp?id=545  I believe this program 
may not work with the Nuvi's but give it try.  Should work with all 
other Garmin GPS's.

Sean

Liz edodd-at-billiau.net |OSM list| wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Sean wrote:
>   
>>   Quote "Fiddling with my Garmin sat-nav I suspect
>> that it supports a "roundabout on
>> a node" tag.".  Could you please explain this point a bit more.  Going
>> through all the docs I have on the Garmin format I can't find any
>> support for a roundabout on a node.
>> 
>
> I've got one on a City Navigator map which look s as if it is a roundabout on 
> a node.
> I tried to take its picture on the sat-nav but failed.
> The cross streets are Brook Street and Hillam Street and if you set the arrow 
> on the roundabout its marked Hillam Street in one box and Roundabout in 
> another text box.
> The other roundabouts have the two street names in the text boxes.
> That made me wonder about just what might be on the map at that point.
>
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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Liz]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Sean wrote:
>   Quote "Fiddling with my Garmin sat-nav I suspect
> that it supports a "roundabout on
> a node" tag.".  Could you please explain this point a bit more.  Going
> through all the docs I have on the Garmin format I can't find any
> support for a roundabout on a node.

I've got one on a City Navigator map which look s as if it is a roundabout on 
a node.
I tried to take its picture on the sat-nav but failed.
The cross streets are Brook Street and Hillam Street and if you set the arrow 
on the roundabout its marked Hillam Street in one box and Roundabout in 
another text box.
The other roundabouts have the two street names in the text boxes.
That made me wonder about just what might be on the map at that point.


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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Liz]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Darrin Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:54:24 +1100
>
> Liz  wrote:
> > "Not again" they all groan
> >
> > this is today's version of my review
> > you have to read to the end to get my opinion and conclusions
> >
> > http://billiau.net/~liz/osm/roundabouts.pdf
> >
> > i may get more info and edit it further so it is not going to wiki at
> > the moment
>
> Wow, nice bit of researching. Found a couple of sites I found and a
> heap I didn't. I stumbled across the midi-roundabout site in particular
> and thought, at last we actually have a *name* for the problem cases ;)
>
> The way the sentence starts on page 10 makes it look a little
> like there's a line missing, I had to read it a couple of times to
> realise it actually works :D (Perhaps start the sentence 'The
> highway=roundabout tag would...' I guess).
>
> Those pesky 'mini's in Gascoyne Avenue might just end up giving me a
> problem the other way if people accept your conclusion (which works for
> me I must admit), since I'm pretty sure they have standard signage.
> Still, that's life. :)

After I've managed to read the Austroads document (without paying $44 for a 
download) I may have more to add, and any more edits will be helpful


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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Liz]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Darrin Smith wrote:
> Oh, another thing (sorry). I didn't seem much information in there
> about whether parking is allowed on the roadway of a roundabout
> (relevant for several large cases around the place, like the squares in
> Adelaide, although upon reflect I don't think any of the square
> acutally have signs or provide right of way to the central 'circular'
> road in all cases.). I did find one reference the other day (on the
> mini/midi roundabout guys site I think) which indicated that it
> shouldn't be. But nothing else.

If that's the way those squares work - the loop road does not have priority - 
then the road is a traffic circle / gyratory / rotary
and having parking is one of their options.



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Re: [talk-au] *Round*abouts

[Paul Zagoridis]

Actually in NSW it is 20 penalty units as per
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewtop/inforce/subordleg+179+2008+fn+0+N


115   Driving in a roundabout to the left of the central traffic island

(1)  A driver driving in a roundabout must drive:

(a)  to the left of the central traffic island in the
roundabout, or

(b)  if subrule (2) applies to the driver-on the edge of the
central traffic island, to the left of the centre of the island, or

(c)  if subrule (3) applies to the driver-over the central
traffic island, to the left of the centre of the island.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note. Traffic island is defined in the Dictionary.

(2)  This subrule applies to a driver if:

(a)  the driver's vehicle is too large to drive in the
roundabout without driving on the edge of the central traffic island, and

(b)  the driver can safely drive on the edge of the central
traffic island.

Note. Driver's vehicle is defined in the Dictionary.

(3)  This subrule applies to a driver if:

(a)  the driver's vehicle is too large to drive in the
roundabout without driving over the central traffic island, and

(b)  the central traffic island is designed to allow a vehicle
of that kind to be driven over it.


--
Paul Zagoridis
email: pa...@zagz.com
blog: http://wealthesteem.org Wealth is created between your ears
personal blog: http://zagz.com
mobile: +61 414 707 343
skype: paul.zagoridis
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Join me on your network of choice
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-Original Message-
From: talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org
[mailto:talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Mike R
Sent: Saturday, 13 December 2008 7:00 AM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] *Round*abouts

" They may or may not be wider than the roads, but you will be
booked turning right over them instead of taking "the third exit"."

   - No, under the Australian Road Rules, the only centre-divider that it's
legal to drive over is the centre of a roundabout.

Mike


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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Darrin Smith]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:54:24 +1100
Liz  wrote:

> "Not again" they all groan
> 
> this is today's version of my review 
> you have to read to the end to get my opinion and conclusions
> 
> http://billiau.net/~liz/osm/roundabouts.pdf
> 
> i may get more info and edit it further so it is not going to wiki at
> the moment

Oh, another thing (sorry). I didn't seem much information in there
about whether parking is allowed on the roadway of a roundabout
(relevant for several large cases around the place, like the squares in
Adelaide, although upon reflect I don't think any of the square
acutally have signs or provide right of way to the central 'circular'
road in all cases.). I did find one reference the other day (on the
mini/midi roundabout guys site I think) which indicated that it
shouldn't be. But nothing else.

-- 

=b

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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Sean]

G'Day Liz

Well I just skim read you document.  The design or how they are made, 
how they differ from other countries etc, just doesn't interest me 
sorry.  The only thing that interest me about roundabouts is

1)  What the law says about how I should enter or exit a roundabout when 
I'm driving.
2)  Where they are.
3)  What exit I need to take to get to my destination.

I'm sorry but that's me.  I did see one point that did interest me in 
your Opinions section.  Quote "Fiddling with my Garmin sat-nav I suspect 
that it supports a "roundabout on
a node" tag.".  Could you please explain this point a bit more.  Going 
through all the docs I have on the Garmin format I can't find any 
support for a roundabout on a node.  Can find support for a roundabout 
on a way.  Even looking at Garmin official maps like City Navigator, all 
roundabouts are drawn as loop ways.

Sean

Liz edodd-at-billiau.net |OSM list| wrote:
> "Not again" they all groan
>
> this is today's version of my review 
> you have to read to the end to get my opinion and conclusions
>
> http://billiau.net/~liz/osm/roundabouts.pdf
>
> i may get more info and edit it further so it is not going to wiki at the 
> moment
>
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Re: [talk-au] roundabouts

[Darrin Smith]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:54:24 +1100
Liz  wrote:

> "Not again" they all groan
> 
> this is today's version of my review 
> you have to read to the end to get my opinion and conclusions
> 
> http://billiau.net/~liz/osm/roundabouts.pdf
> 
> i may get more info and edit it further so it is not going to wiki at
> the moment

Wow, nice bit of researching. Found a couple of sites I found and a
heap I didn't. I stumbled across the midi-roundabout site in particular
and thought, at last we actually have a *name* for the problem cases ;)

The way the sentence starts on page 10 makes it look a little
like there's a line missing, I had to read it a couple of times to
realise it actually works :D (Perhaps start the sentence 'The
highway=roundabout tag would...' I guess).

Those pesky 'mini's in Gascoyne Avenue might just end up giving me a
problem the other way if people accept your conclusion (which works for
me I must admit), since I'm pretty sure they have standard signage.
Still, that's life. :)

-- 

=b

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Re: [talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?

[Sean]

G'Day Cameron

I never said I was mapping for a particular program or device.  Garmin 
was just an example.  I'm mapping for all programs and devices.  As all 
programs or devices can  render a loop way it just makes more since to 
do it that way.  It doesn't matter what the tagging is or if it is 
removed.  Any tom, dick or harry that uses that data knows straight way 
where the roundabout are don't they.  In the case of Garmin GPS's they 
only support roundabouts as a way and not as a point.  Pretty hard to 
edit a script if that's the case isn't.

Sean




Cameron osm-mailing-lists-at-justcameron.com |OSM list| wrote:
> Sean,
>
> We should not map for a renderer or for a particular use case. If 
> scripts which convert osm data to the garmin data format lose the 
> roundabout information, then the script should be edited to add a 
> roundabout when it encounters the mini_roundabout tag.
>
> ~Cameron
>
> 2008/12/13 Sean <4ey0ll...@sneakemail.com 
> >
>
> I've read through all the post on this discussion so far and I totally
> agree with Darrin.  I also think all roundabouts including ones
> paint on
> the road should be drawn as a loop way.  I see the discussion has been
> about trying to define what a roundabout is.  But no one has thought
> about the end products that this data can be used for.  There are many
> programs and devices out on the market that when the OSM data is
> converted into a format that that the program or device can use, that
> the mini_roundabout tag is lost while being converted.  It basically
> turns that intersection into a four way intersection and you have no
> idea that there is a roundabout at that intersection.  A really good
> example is all Garmin mapping GPS.  All roundabouts HAVE TO be
> drawn as
> a loop way to show up on the Garmin GPS.  I can't be 100% sure but I
> would this would be true for most mapping GPS's.  So what I'm
> sayings is
> you are better to draw a loop way for ALL roundabouts so that if
> the tag
> is lost while being converted to another format or load into another
> program, any Tom, Dick or Harry can still tell there is still a
> roundabout at that intersection.
>
> Sean
>
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