Re: [talk-au] ABS [ ODbL data.gov.au permission granted]

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

There are some difficulties here:

The suburb boundaries have been there a while, and have been heavily
edited. Often a boundary is marked by a geographical feature, such as a
road or a river. In many places the geographical feature has been merged
with the boundary. Removing the boundary removes any corrections to the
boundary (that is, any new points that were not actually part of the
import), and likely removes things like rivers, railway lines, and roads.

What will get removed? The relations? The ways? The points? I guess this is
a question bigger than just the ABS data, but given how integrated this
import is with other data, the impact would be significant.

How on earth would we plan for such removal?

Franc also imported postcode boundaries at the same time as the suburb
boundaries.

 - Ben.

On 16 November 2011 21:34, Michael Collinson  wrote:

> **
>
> Now, at a practical level, I believe this all boils down to one dataset of
> suburb boundaries [3]. I hope others will correct me if I am wrong here.
> There is also an interesting dataset of  post code areas, I believe that
> has never been imported, but could be done now.
>
> The suburbs dataset in OSM is from 2006 data and was imported by Franc
> under the user account http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ABS2006.  I have
> confirmed that Franc does not wish to accept the new contributor terms on
> behalf of that account.  It will therefore have to be removed. It can be
> replaced with a newer 2011 dataset [4], so is probably a good thing
> anyway?  Franc has very kindly made the original Perl import script
> available, I can mail it anyone who wants it. Ogr2osm [5] has also been
> recommended to me as a very up-to-date tool.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] ODbL data.gov.au permission granted

[Michael Collinson]

On 15/11/2011 22:38, Andrew Laughton wrote:


Yahoo granted permission for us to trace from their imagery.  yahoo
imagery was available in josm and potlatch for quite some time.  So
I'd expect that your tracing of yahoo imagery is fine unless I
misunderstand what you did.


I knew it was fine at the time, while it licensed by CC-by-SA or CC-by.
I did not know it was OK by them to also publish it under a ODbL license.

This is why I thought both government data and traced data needed to 
be removed because of this license change.


So just to be clear, Nearmap are OK with CC-by-SA, but not with ODbL 
after a certain date ?


Anything traced before 18th June 2011 is fine under both CC-by-SA and 
ODbL.  This remains true if you accept the new contributor terms.


Nearmap's commercial concerns are with the contributor terms rather than 
the licenses.  Ben Last's statement on behalf of Nearmap can be found here:


http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-June/008098.html


Mike
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Re: [talk-au] ODbL data.gov.au permission granted

[Michael Collinson]

Thanks Mark and I appreciate your feedback. I very much hope you will be 
able to accept the new terms and get back to mapping and will help if I can.


The direct answer to your question is that if ABS data is available and 
downloaded  from data.gov.au [1], and has a CC-BY license, then yes. I 
checked a fairly large random sample and, indeed, all of them were 
CC-BY. If the dataset is only available from the ABS website [2] then it 
would be best to be cautious and courteous by asking them directly.  I 
have not done so as I believe everything (geographical) that the OSM 
community wants is at data.gov.au, but am happy to do so if asked.


Now, at a practical level, I believe this all boils down to one dataset 
of suburb boundaries [3]. I hope others will correct me if I am wrong 
here. There is also an interesting dataset of  post code areas, I 
believe that has never been imported, but could be done now.


The suburbs dataset in OSM is from 2006 data and was imported by Franc 
under the user account http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ABS2006.  I 
have confirmed that Franc does not wish to accept the new contributor 
terms on behalf of that account.  It will therefore have to be removed. 
It can be replaced with a newer 2011 dataset [4], so is probably a good 
thing anyway?  Franc has very kindly made the original Perl import 
script available, I can mail it anyone who wants it. Ogr2osm [5] has 
also been recommended to me as a very up-to-date tool.


I am steadily hijacking your original question but my suggestion is that 
this be done fairly soon after a bit of discussion so that folks know 
what is happening, checked that the details I am presenting are correct 
and can give some input.  One question: should all relevant boundaries 
be removed (easy, clean but will also blow away some local corrections 
made by contributors) or should just the ABS2006 user data be removed, 
(which will leave the corrections but be messier and require some manual 
merging when the new 2011 set is imported)?


Hope that helps,
Mike

[1] http://data.gov.au/data/?agency=Australian+Bureau+of+Statistics

[2] _http://www.abs.gov.au/geography_ and 
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/webpages/statistics?opendocument 
are good starting points.


[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data Franc's 
write up on the orginal import


[4] 
http://data.gov.au/dataset/state-suburbs-asgs-non-abs-structures-ed-2011/  
Latest suburb boundaries?


[5] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ogr2osm  Import tool



On 15/11/2011 23:40, Nilbog_aus_OSM wrote:


Thanks Michael. Actually seeing a full copy of an email including the 
OKing the use of gov.au data is what I was waiting for also. Getting 
an explicit email approving the use is going above and beyond for me 
and much appreciated.


I haven't been following OSM as much as I did now my uses for it have 
dropped. So please forgive me if the following question has been 
answered or has become inflammatory. Does the gov.au Ok also cover the 
ABS data?


As the ABS data is the only thing left stopping me accepting the new 
terms.


Thanks

Mark

*From:* Michael Collinson [mailto:m...@ayeltd.biz]
*Sent:* Wednesday, 16 November 2011 2:34 AM
*To:* OSM Australian Talk List
*Subject:* Re: [talk-au] ODbL data.gov.au permission granted

On 15/11/2011 11:58, 80n wrote:

Can you please publish the verbatim correspondence that you have had 
with your man at data.gov.au ?  Your 
interpretation is fine, but others may see nuances that you have 
overlooked.


The statement on the wiki is not a statement from data.gov.au 
 and counts for nothing unless you have a document 
from your man at data.gov.au  that references it 
and says yes that's ok.  Do you have such a document?



Gosh, this is getting kakfaesque. Hope this puts this it to bed:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission 
and copied below in response to my request today, also copied below.


Mike
-

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your email.

The attribution statement

"Contains data from Australian government public information datasets. 
The original datasets are available from the Australian government 
data website  under Creative Commons - 
Attribution 2.5 Australia (CC-BY) 
 and Creative Commons 
- Attribution 3.0 Australia (CC-BY) 
. We have also been 
given explicit permission to incorporate and publish such CC-BY 
licensed geographic coordinate datasets under a free and open license, 
including the Open Database License, provided that primary attribution 
is made here and that each dataset used is also listed here in the 
format /Dataset Name, Date Published, License, Agency Name, originally 
retrieved from// //http://data.australia.gov.au/