Re: [talk-au] place equals what BY features

2016-05-13 Thread Warin 

On 5/13/2016 9:22 PM, cleary wrote:
I agree that there is a need to improve our classification of places. 
However I think that taking population as the sole criterion will 
create more discrepancies than we have already.


I think of it as a guide. In fact most of the OSM wiki to me is a guide.

For example, I live in a Sydney suburb that has a population greater 
than the gazetted "state suburb" of Sydney (roughly the CBD area). If 
we adopted a strictly population-based criterion, my suburb and many 
others with more than 10,000 people would be "towns" in OSM and Sydney 
CBD be a "town". My suburb has about the same population as the rural 
city of Griffith, NSW. I think Griffith is a city but my suburb is not.
Yep. I take your point. Closer to home is Penrith .. a city or a suburb 
of Sydney?
I won't keep going on and on, but there are many questions thrown up 
by relying on population alone as the criterion for determining if a 
place is a city or town or whatever. I think it has to be a sort of 
"common sense" decision taking population into account but other 
factors as well.  But I do support the need to try to clarify our 
classifications and appreciate the difficulty in resolving the issue.

A start on the classification by features? Warning .. draft only!

A city at a minimum has;

one hospital with emergency services
more than one police station
more than one public library
more than one secondary school
a university
more than one doctor's practice
more than one petrol station
more than one bank
more than one ATM
more than one Post Office

A town at a minimum has;

a hospital
a police station
a public library
a secondary school
a doctor's practice
a newsagent
a petrol station
a bank
a Post Office

A village at a minimum has;

a convenience store



On Fri, May 13, 2016, at 07:11 PM, Warin wrote:

On 5/13/2016 11:36 AM, Warin wrote:

On 5/6/2016 9:51 AM, Simon Slater wrote:

On Thu, 5 May 2016 10:10:35 AM Ian Sergeant wrote:


1. Any attempt to make something render on sparse parts of the map, is
a rendering issue.  Any renderer is free to pre-process the data based
on a population and remoteness algorithm if they wish.

2. Personally, I make anything a town if it has services.  If it has a
pub, a take-away, a supermarket, a post-office, and a fuel station,
then it's a town.  I save hamlet for a population grouping without any
services, and a locality for a place where there is essentially no
population clustering.  This is a natural skew towards remoter
destinations becoming towns, because they are service towns for
surrounding areas, rather than necessarily having large populations
themselves.


Post offices may be a good guide.  25 years ago there were at least 4 post 
offices
between here (Swan Hill) and Kerang.  Now there is only one at Lake Boga, but
all the other post codes are still in place, mail routing through either
Kerang or Swan Hill.

Australia post has;

 *
Post Office (PO) and
 *
Local Post Office (LPO)

The LPO is usually smaller and within another business ..usually a local 
convenience store.

The ABS has this

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/1d90c1ef4ac928d5ca2570ec0018e4f7!OpenDocument 


"*Identifying towns*

In this review *small towns*have been defined as population centres with between 
1,000 and 19,999 people. Towns might ideally be distinguished from 
cities and from smaller rural communities according to functional 
criteria, such as the presence or absence of various educational, 
medical, recreational and retail services, together perhaps with 
administrative criteria such as whether or not a city or town 
council operated from within the town. While such conceptual 
distinctions might be made, it is difficult to put such definitions 
into practice. The above population size was therefore considered 
the most suitable alternative which would generally encompass these 
criteria."


I tend to concur with this - simplest to implement and verify. I do 
note the 'medical' services that ABS have for identifying towns etc, 
that may be a usefull criteria in addition to number of pubs, petrol 
stations etc.




I have gotten some 1,400 'towns from the OSM data base .. many of these have no 
population given, but from those that do;
Penrith 178465
Bunbury 64385
Maitland61431
Palmerston  46618
Melton  45624
Port Macquarie  41723
Sunbury 33062
Pakenham32911
Nowra   32556
Albany  30656
Devonport   29051
Goulburn21484
Busselton   21407
Ocean Grove 16093
Bacchus Marsh   14913
Port Hedland13772
Torquay 13339
Coolum Beach13154
Broome  12766
Batemans Bay12000
Lara11192
Drysdale10927

Compare this to the 'cities';
  
Charters Towers	8,234

Charleville 4,700
Caloundra

Re: [talk-au] place town subject and Download

2016-05-13 Thread Warin 

On 5/14/2016 11:30 AM, Simon Slater wrote:

On Fri, 13 May 2016 07:11:39 PM Warin wrote:
2 things:
First, I may have mussed up the threading here but the subject of Warin's last
thread looked like "ￜￜￜￜ...".  My e-mail client has been playing
silly-buggers lately, so was this the intended subject or just my client?


Yer... I think that is the use of ? and/or = characters that much up these 
email clients. Sorry about that, did not realise.




I have gotten some 1,400 'towns from the OSM data base ..

Second, how does one extract data like this from the OSM database?  Is there a
wikipage or other guide?


I am using JOSM -

file - Download from Overpass API
Build query ... enter 'place=town' in the box on the right then  click on the 
'Build query' and that gets the Overpass query built blow your entry.
Then select the area .. if you make this too large it will time out. Download...

This gets you it into JOSM .. then save as to get a .osm file and I then use a 
small script to extract the name and population from that file into a .csv file.

I just followed my nose to get here.


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Re: [talk-au] place=? and oldie but a goodie.

2016-05-13 Thread Simon Slater 
On Fri, 13 May 2016 07:11:39 PM Warin wrote:
2 things:
First, I may have mussed up the threading here but the subject of Warin's last 
thread looked like "ￜￜￜￜ...".  My e-mail client has been playing 
silly-buggers lately, so was this the intended subject or just my client?

> I have gotten some 1,400 'towns from the OSM data base ..

Second, how does one extract data like this from the OSM database?  Is there a 
wikipage or other guide?
-- 
Regards
Simon Slater

Registered Linux User #463789
http://linuxcounter.net 


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Re: [talk-au] ����������������������������������������������������(

2016-05-13 Thread cleary 
 
I agree that there is a need to improve our classification of places.
However I think that taking population as the sole criterion will create
more discrepancies than we have already.
 
For example, I live in a Sydney suburb that has a population greater
than the gazetted "state suburb" of Sydney (roughly the CBD area). If we
adopted a strictly population-based criterion, my suburb and many others
with more than 10,000 people would be "towns" in OSM and Sydney CBD be a
"town". My suburb has about the same population as the rural city of
Griffith, NSW. I think Griffith is a city but my suburb is not.
 
The figure extracted from the OSM population data shows Nowra with over
32,000 population. On the ABS website, the ABS census data for 2011
shows the "state suburb" of Nowra having 9,200 people .. just a village.
If we add the adjacent areas of North Nowra, South Nowra, West Nowra and
Bomaderry, then ABS shows the "Nowra/Bomaderry Urban Centre" which
includes the areas around Nowra as having approx. 28,000 people. So do
we show Bomaderry as part of greater Nowra, or is it a village/town in
its own right?  Does North Nowra exist in its own right as a
suburb/village or is it just part of the larger Nowra?
 
There is also the issue of population density. 500 people living in a
couple of square kilometres might be a village. Another 500 people
living in a gazetted location of hundreds of square kilometres could
hardly be said to be living in a village even though their location has
an equivalent population.
 
I won't keep going on and on, but there are many questions thrown up by
relying on population alone as the criterion for determining if a place
is a city or town or whatever. I think it has to be a sort of "common
sense" decision taking population into account but other factors as
well.  But I do support the need to try to clarify our classifications
and appreciate the difficulty in resolving the issue.
 
 
 
 
 
On Fri, May 13, 2016, at 07:11 PM, Warin wrote:
> On 5/13/2016 11:36 AM, Warin wrote:
>> On 5/6/2016 9:51 AM, Simon Slater wrote:
>>> On Thu, 5 May 2016 10:10:35 AM Ian Sergeant wrote:
>>>
 1. Any attempt to make something render on sparse parts of the map,
is a rendering issue.  Any renderer is free to pre-process the
data based on a population and remoteness algorithm if they
wish.  2. Personally, I make anything a town if it has services.
If it has a pub, a take-away, a supermarket, a post-office, and
a fuel station, then it's a town.  I save hamlet for a
population grouping without any services, and a locality for a
place where there is essentially no population clustering.  This
is a natural skew towards remoter destinations becoming towns,
because they are service towns for surrounding areas, rather
than necessarily having large populations themselves.

>>> Post offices may be a good guide.  25 years ago there were at least
>>> 4 post offices between here (Swan Hill) and Kerang.  Now there is
>>> only one at Lake Boga, but all the other post codes are still in
>>> place, mail routing through either Kerang or Swan Hill.
>>
>> Australia post has;
>>  * Post Office (PO) and
>>  * Local Post Office (LPO) The LPO is usually smaller and within
>>another business ..usually a local convenience store.
>>
>> The ABS has this
>>
>> http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/1d90c1ef4ac928d5ca2570ec0018e4f7!OpenDocument[1]
>> "*Identifying towns*

>> In this review *small towns* have been defined as population centres
>> with between 1,000 and 19,999 people. Towns might ideally be
>> distinguished from cities and from smaller rural communities
>> according to functional criteria, such as the presence or absence of
>> various educational, medical, recreational and retail services,
>> together perhaps with administrative criteria such as whether or not
>> a city or town council operated from within the town. While such
>> conceptual distinctions might be made, it is difficult to put such
>> definitions into practice. The above population size was therefore
>> considered the most suitable alternative which would generally
>> encompass these criteria."
>>
>>
>> I tend to concur with this - simplest to implement and verify.  I do
>> note the 'medical' services that ABS have for identifying towns etc,
>> that may be a usefull criteria in addition to number of pubs, petrol
>> stations etc.
>>
>>


> I have gotten some 1,400 'towns from the OSM data base .. many of
> these have no population given, but from those that do; Penrith
> 178465 Bunbury  64385 Maitland  61431 Palmerston46618
> Melton45624 Port Macquarie41723 Sunbury
> 33062 Pakenham  32911 Nowra 32556 Albany30656
> Devonport 29051 Goulburn  21484 Busselton 21407 Ocean Grove
> 16093 Bacchus Marsh 14913 Port Hedland  13772 Torquay
> 13339 Coolum Beach  13154 Broome

Re: [talk-au] ����������������������������������������������������(

2016-05-13 Thread Warin 

On 5/13/2016 11:36 AM, Warin wrote:

On 5/6/2016 9:51 AM, Simon Slater wrote:

On Thu, 5 May 2016 10:10:35 AM Ian Sergeant wrote:

1. Any attempt to make something render on sparse parts of the map, is
a rendering issue.  Any renderer is free to pre-process the data based
on a population and remoteness algorithm if they wish.

2. Personally, I make anything a town if it has services.  If it has a
pub, a take-away, a supermarket, a post-office, and a fuel station,
then it's a town.  I save hamlet for a population grouping without any
services, and a locality for a place where there is essentially no
population clustering.  This is a natural skew towards remoter
destinations becoming towns, because they are service towns for
surrounding areas, rather than necessarily having large populations
themselves.

Post offices may be a good guide.  25 years ago there were at least 4 post 
offices
between here (Swan Hill) and Kerang.  Now there is only one at Lake Boga, but
all the other post codes are still in place, mail routing through either
Kerang or Swan Hill.


Australia post has;

 *
Post Office (PO) and
 *
Local Post Office (LPO)

The LPO is usually smaller and within another business ..usually a local 
convenience store.
The ABS has this
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/1d90c1ef4ac928d5ca2570ec0018e4f7!OpenDocument
"*Identifying towns*

In this review *small towns*have been defined as population centres with between 1,000 
and 19,999 people. Towns might ideally be distinguished from cities 
and from smaller rural communities according to functional criteria, 
such as the presence or absence of various educational, medical, 
recreational and retail services, together perhaps with administrative 
criteria such as whether or not a city or town council operated from 
within the town. While such conceptual distinctions might be made, it 
is difficult to put such definitions into practice. The above 
population size was therefore considered the most suitable alternative 
which would generally encompass these criteria."
I tend to concur with this - simplest to implement and verify. I do 
note the 'medical' services that ABS have for identifying towns etc, 
that may be a usefull criteria in addition to number of pubs, petrol 
stations etc.




I have gotten some 1,400 'towns from the OSM data base .. many of these have no 
population given, but from those that do;

Penrith 178465
Bunbury 64385
Maitland61431
Palmerston  46618
Melton  45624
Port Macquarie  41723
Sunbury 33062
Pakenham32911
Nowra   32556
Albany  30656
Devonport   29051
Goulburn21484
Busselton   21407
Ocean Grove 16093
Bacchus Marsh   14913
Port Hedland13772
Torquay 13339
Coolum Beach13154
Broome  12766
Batemans Bay12000
Lara11192
Drysdale10927

Compare this to the 'cities';
 
Charters Towers	8,234

Charleville 4,700
Caloundra   3,550
Winton  1,337



Winton and Charleville 'cities' when Broome is not? No .. sorry that makes no 
sense, even when taking into account 'remoteness' and services.

And the other end of 'towns';

Marble Bar  194
Coral Bay   190
Coorow  176
Guilderton  146
Marvel Loch 98
Popanyinning87
Betoota 0
Ooldea  0

Ooldea used to have a hermit, he could still be kicking ... the others there 
were railway workers with homes elsewhere.
Betoota used to have 1, but he died.
I don't think anyone could call these 'towns'! Even on a 'services' scale.

_There is a clear disparity here. _


I hope to get all the 'towns' populations that are missing entered from the ABS 
census 2011, and then look again at these 'towns'.
I have entered all the 'cities' population data that was missing, so that bit 
is done.

I am yet to get the villages list, if I do!

---
As a reminder of what I first proposed
OSM wiki presently has by population 
city>100,000>town>10,000>village>200>hamlet>100

  __I think for Australia;
city>10,000>town>1,000>village>100>hamlet>10   




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