Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 29/12/16 09:08, cleary wrote:


I have a different view about whether the unincorporated areas actually
exist. They have defined boundaries and names, both assigned by the
respective State governments, and included in the LGA datasets. I have
seen the boundaries signposted when travelling in rural areas of both
NSW and SA and the signs are the same as signs identifying shire/city
boundaries.


That's not the issue. I'm not saying that there isn't parts of NSW known 
as unincorporated area. All I'm saying is that this is the part of NSW 
that doesn't have a local government authority and as such should not be 
tagged as admin_level 6. There is no local administration in this area 
it's all done from the state government level.


If you really want to put the unincorporated areas on the map I would 
have thought that the obvious answer was to give them a different 
admin_level to indicate that they are not of the same type. We currently 
have two redundant admin_levels that could be re-assigned to do this. 
Admin_level 9 was supposed to be used for non-ABS suburb boundaries but 
there are only about a dozen of these. Admin-level 8 is set aside for 
post code boundaries and there are 3 of these currently in OSM. Given 
that the post code boundaries are a commercial product I think we can 
safely assume that these will never become available, but in other 
countries this level is used for town boundaries and we may want to do 
this as well at some point in the future.


So I would suggest:

Admin_level 10 => Bounded locality (ABS or otherwise determined)
Admin_level 9 => Unincorporated areas
Admin_level 8 => Reserved for future use as post code or town boundaries
Admin_level 6 => Local Government Area.





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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 29-Dec-16 09:30 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Hi all

I would agree with Warin's latest suggested definition: "The boundary 
of an authority that is responsible for local government 
 functions within that 
boundary."


If there's "something" there, we should be showing it!

Further to Cleary's comment about NSW Legislation, earlier this week I 
was looking at the BoM site for NSW & they had put out a weather 
warning for the Unincorporated Area of NSW, so they also think that it 
exists!


On a similar line (& apologies if it's been discussed & resolved 
previously) how do we treat Aboriginal towns? They lie within some 
form of "Shire" (presumably Level 6), but then each town is run by 
it's Local Community Council. Are they also a Level 6 authority?


I don't think they are a level 6 ...
Tibooburra and Silverton also have 'village councils' .. but are inside 
the 'unincorporated thingy' ...
I think these 'village councils' operate under the oversight of their 
respective level 6 bodies.
 These, if entered, should be a lesser number .. 7 (District or Region 
Border ) or 9 (Suburb and Locality Border) {8 is postcodes, 10 is Suburb 
and Locality Border (ABS boundaries) }  .. to show that they are a 
'lesser' entity.





Thanks

Graeme
_


On 29 December 2016 at 08:08, cleary > wrote:



I have a different view about whether the unincorporated areas
actually
exist. They have defined boundaries and names, both assigned by the
respective State governments, and included in the LGA datasets. I have
seen the boundaries signposted when travelling in rural areas of both
NSW and SA and the signs are the same as signs identifying shire/city
boundaries. Governments don't give boundaries, names and signposts to
entities that do not exist. I do agree that unincorporated areas have
different and varied governance/administrative arrangements - I
understand that State governments have considered the different
arrangements more suitable because the unincorporated areas are more
sparsely populated and/or have special circumstances. If it is
important
to highlight the different administrative arrangements, then Warin's
suggestion of additional tags is a good way forward. As the areas do
actually exist, it seems to me that they warrant being appropriately
mapped with administrative boundaries, as shown in the State
government
LGA datasets.

After Andrew's earlier comment about references in legislation, I
looked
at NSW legislation. There are a few references to the Unincorporated
Area of NSW and generally they refer to it as if it were a local
government area. The most explicit is the Electricity Supply Act 1995
which states that the legislation "applies to the unincorporated
area as
if (a) references to a local government area were references to the
unincorporated area, and (b)  references to a local council were
references to the Western Lands Commissioner" and it makes similar
provisons in regard to Lord Howe Island and the Lord Howe Island
Board.
For practical purposes the Unincorporated Area of NSW and Lord Howe
Island appear to be treated as similar and equivalent to areas
administered by councils.

I don't think I can add anything new and would be repeating myself
if I
said much more. I won't keep posting further comments on this
issue but
I hope that the OSM community might help clarify the matter or suggest
an alternate approach.   I have an interest in administrative
boundaries
and I have travelled and mapped in rural and remote parts of NSW,
SA and
other states. I remain disappointed that the Unincorporated Area
of New
South Wales was deleted and I don't wish to see other unincorporated
LGAs deleted either.


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi all

I would agree with Warin's latest suggested definition: "The boundary of an
authority that is responsible for local government
 functions within that
boundary."

If there's "something" there, we should be showing it!

Further to Cleary's comment about NSW Legislation, earlier this week I was
looking at the BoM site for NSW & they had put out a weather warning for  the
Unincorporated Area of NSW, so they also think that it exists!

On a similar line (& apologies if it's been discussed & resolved
previously) how do we treat Aboriginal towns? They lie within some form of
"Shire" (presumably Level 6), but then each town is run by it's Local
Community Council. Are they also a Level 6 authority?

Thanks

Graeme
_


On 29 December 2016 at 08:08, cleary  wrote:

>
> I have a different view about whether the unincorporated areas actually
> exist. They have defined boundaries and names, both assigned by the
> respective State governments, and included in the LGA datasets. I have
> seen the boundaries signposted when travelling in rural areas of both
> NSW and SA and the signs are the same as signs identifying shire/city
> boundaries. Governments don't give boundaries, names and signposts to
> entities that do not exist. I do agree that unincorporated areas have
> different and varied governance/administrative arrangements - I
> understand that State governments have considered the different
> arrangements more suitable because the unincorporated areas are more
> sparsely populated and/or have special circumstances. If it is important
> to highlight the different administrative arrangements, then Warin's
> suggestion of additional tags is a good way forward. As the areas do
> actually exist, it seems to me that they warrant being appropriately
> mapped with administrative boundaries, as shown in the State government
> LGA datasets.
>
> After Andrew's earlier comment about references in legislation, I looked
> at NSW legislation. There are a few references to the Unincorporated
> Area of NSW and generally they refer to it as if it were a local
> government area. The most explicit is the Electricity Supply Act 1995
> which states that the legislation "applies to the unincorporated area as
> if (a) references to a local government area were references to the
> unincorporated area, and (b)  references to a local council were
> references to the Western Lands Commissioner" and it makes similar
> provisons in regard to Lord Howe Island and the Lord Howe Island Board.
> For practical purposes the Unincorporated Area of NSW and Lord Howe
> Island appear to be treated as similar and equivalent to areas
> administered by councils.
>
> I don't think I can add anything new and would be repeating myself if I
> said much more. I won't keep posting further comments on this issue but
> I hope that the OSM community might help clarify the matter or suggest
> an alternate approach.   I have an interest in administrative boundaries
> and I have travelled and mapped in rural and remote parts of NSW, SA and
> other states. I remain disappointed that the Unincorporated Area of New
> South Wales was deleted and I don't wish to see other unincorporated
> LGAs deleted either.
>
>
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Ben Kelley]

Just my 2c:

To the average map user, it seems that these are pretty much the same 
thing. (Unincorporated areas and local government boundaries.)


While the technical definition is different, I'm not sure that matters 
so much. The 2 don't physically overlap or intersect. I don't see any 
problem with tagging them similarly with regard to admin boundaries.


 - Ben.



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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[cleary]

I have a different view about whether the unincorporated areas actually
exist. They have defined boundaries and names, both assigned by the
respective State governments, and included in the LGA datasets. I have
seen the boundaries signposted when travelling in rural areas of both
NSW and SA and the signs are the same as signs identifying shire/city
boundaries. Governments don't give boundaries, names and signposts to
entities that do not exist. I do agree that unincorporated areas have
different and varied governance/administrative arrangements - I
understand that State governments have considered the different
arrangements more suitable because the unincorporated areas are more
sparsely populated and/or have special circumstances. If it is important
to highlight the different administrative arrangements, then Warin's
suggestion of additional tags is a good way forward. As the areas do
actually exist, it seems to me that they warrant being appropriately
mapped with administrative boundaries, as shown in the State government
LGA datasets.

After Andrew's earlier comment about references in legislation, I looked
at NSW legislation. There are a few references to the Unincorporated
Area of NSW and generally they refer to it as if it were a local
government area. The most explicit is the Electricity Supply Act 1995
which states that the legislation "applies to the unincorporated area as
if (a) references to a local government area were references to the
unincorporated area, and (b)  references to a local council were
references to the Western Lands Commissioner" and it makes similar
provisons in regard to Lord Howe Island and the Lord Howe Island Board.
For practical purposes the Unincorporated Area of NSW and Lord Howe
Island appear to be treated as similar and equivalent to areas
administered by councils.  

I don't think I can add anything new and would be repeating myself if I
said much more. I won't keep posting further comments on this issue but
I hope that the OSM community might help clarify the matter or suggest
an alternate approach.   I have an interest in administrative boundaries
and I have travelled and mapped in rural and remote parts of NSW, SA and
other states. I remain disappointed that the Unincorporated Area of New
South Wales was deleted and I don't wish to see other unincorporated
LGAs deleted either. 


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 28-Dec-16 06:57 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:



On 28/12/16 17:51, cleary wrote:


In suggesting the term "Local Government Area", I was thinking of areas
as shown in the Local Government Areas (LGA) datasets issued by state
and territory governments


The LGA dataset have metadata in them that indicate whether or not an 
area has a form of local administration. This is because the users of 
these datasets may want to know this. In OSM there is no tagging that 
you can use to indicate that the boundary that you've put in doesn't 
have what the admin_level tag indicates. That means that these areas 
are represented in OSM by not putting a boundary around them. This is 
the usual way that you indicate that something doesn't exist in OSM.


This is how the admin_level model works. A admin_level 2 boundary 
should enclose a country. You wouldn't expect to find a admin_level 2 
boundary around the "Tasman Sea International Waters". Admin_level 4 
goes around a state or territory. Admin_level 6 goes around the 
boundaries of a local governing authority. Areas not inside a 
admin_level 6 boundary don't have a form of local administration. In 
the Australian case this means that they are administered from the 
state, territory, or in some cases Commonwealth level.


They still have an 'administration'. And that should be documented in OSM.

The present OSMwiki definition can be changed. And it can be changed to 
include more than places with 'local administration'!


Other than Andrew .. are there any others who have any concerns over 
accepting nonlocal administration of 'local government'?


Possible wording ?
The boundary of an authority that is responsible for local government 
 functions within that 
boundary.


Gets away from having the 'authority' being 'local', 'elected' etc ... 
just that they perform the functions of what a 'local government 
' does.


---
Andrew ...if you require more detail ... then adding additional tags is 
possible e.g

local=yes
elected=yes

and what ever other tags you think are required.




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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 28/12/16 17:51, cleary wrote:


In suggesting the term "Local Government Area", I was thinking of areas
as shown in the Local Government Areas (LGA) datasets issued by state
and territory governments


The LGA dataset have metadata in them that indicate whether or not an 
area has a form of local administration. This is because the users of 
these datasets may want to know this. In OSM there is no tagging that 
you can use to indicate that the boundary that you've put in doesn't 
have what the admin_level tag indicates. That means that these areas are 
represented in OSM by not putting a boundary around them. This is the 
usual way that you indicate that something doesn't exist in OSM.


This is how the admin_level model works. A admin_level 2 boundary should 
enclose a country. You wouldn't expect to find a admin_level 2 boundary 
around the "Tasman Sea International Waters". Admin_level 4 goes around 
a state or territory. Admin_level 6 goes around the boundaries of a 
local governing authority. Areas not inside a admin_level 6 boundary 
don't have a form of local administration. In the Australian case this 
means that they are administered from the state, territory, or in some 
cases Commonwealth level.


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