Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 at 11:43, Josh Marshall wrote: > > I tasked the kid with drawing the ideal surf map, and he’s really stuck > into it… and it’s given me more to think about how the features should be > drawn. > Please do share when ready, as I am also well & truly *not* a surfer! (I'm actually a boatie so I'm / they're the enemy! :-)) I like the idea of separate tags too: > - some may be more necessary than others > - better than trying to cram them all into one > - can be added to over time, rather than a formalised :conditional= > Yep. > Always feet. When surfers talk about wave size, it’s much like fishing > aficionados talking about the size of their catch, if you know what I’m > getting at. > Perfectly! > But “size” is variable, what would need to be tagged is “minimum swell > size” for a break to be rideable… which is a more scientific measure and > reported formally. > Hmmm, wouldn't that then vary concerning the board? You often hear the news say "it'll only be a couple of feet / knee high (& does that option need mentioning?), so break out your small wave board & head on down" > I found this article to be the most succinct and detached summary of > conditions required for particular breaks: > https://unravelsurftravel.com/understanding-waves/ > Yep, good article, but one bit there made me think? " To surf the best waves possible you need to know how different swell directions impact upon a particular surf spot" How do we say that the ideal, best conditions are "this", but usual conditions are "that"? Earlier I mentioned about the Kirra Superbank that only occurs a "few" times per year. While the rest of the year is perfectly acceptable, those few times are exceptional! (Think rides over 1 km long! :-)) Can you think of any way of tagging normal v ideal? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
Hi Graeme and all, I tasked the kid with drawing the ideal surf map, and he’s really stuck into it… and it’s given me more to think about how the features should be drawn. On 25 Aug 2022, at 9:20 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Wondering whether you need to have conditional at all? How about sport=surfing surfing:direction=NE surfing:size=4ft surfing:wind=W-SW & make it clear in the wiki that these are the typical / usual conditions. I take away the point from your comment that surf breaks are *always* conditional, so it’s superfluous to name them so. I agree. I like the idea of separate tags too: - some may be more necessary than others - better than trying to cram them all into one - can be added to over time, rather than a formalised :conditional= surfing:size=4ft One thing about size. Here at least (GC) surf reports always quote feet, not metres. Does that change by location? Always feet. When surfers talk about wave size, it’s much like fishing aficionados talking about the size of their catch, if you know what I’m getting at. But “size” is variable, what would need to be tagged is “minimum swell size” for a break to be rideable… which is a more scientific measure and reported formally. I found this article to be the most succinct and detached summary of conditions required for particular breaks: https://unravelsurftravel.com/understanding-waves/ Cheers, Josh ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 23:00, Josh Marshall wrote: > The primary "conditions" are swell direction and size, wind direction and > tide. I have yet to fully think them through, but my instinction is to do > it in a fashion similar to `:conditional` ( > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions), perhaps: > > sport=surfing > surfing:conditional=swell-direction@NE-E;swell-size@3m+;wind@S-WSW (and > so on) > Wondering whether you need to have conditional at all? How about sport=surfing surfing:direction=NE surfing:size=4ft surfing:wind=W-SW & make it clear in the wiki that these are the typical / usual conditions. One thing about size. Here at least (GC) surf reports always quote feet, not metres. Does that change by location? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
Hi Frederik, At first I was a little annoyed at what I thought to be obvious things to consider in your message, as what I am trying to do with this discussion is exactly to cover those issues... but I always run a little search first, and that very much changed my tune to saying I am quite honoured to have you reply to my little proposal. :) I am also a non-surfer, but my son is approaching elite level (it's not from my side of the family), and so this is somewhat a collaborative effort, and he has become quite engaged by the thought of an open repository of information on surfing. He has already prepared a spreadsheet with all the attributes required to describe a break, which are practically identical already to those suggested by Phil Wyatt in the response following yours. The primary "conditions" are swell direction and size, wind direction and tide. I have yet to fully think them through, but my instinction is to do it in a fashion similar to `:conditional` ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions), perhaps: sport=surfing surfing:conditional=swell-direction@NE-E;swell-size@3m+;wind@S-WSW (and so on) Now in another sense this is getting a bit ahead of the game... I am thinking as a part of this there would need to be a dedicated map server+site for highlighting the surfing options (hopefully I will have the time for this)... and until there is I think it's okay to experiment with the tagging. Because in general a surfer would also be able to determine the conditions by looking at the map and a current weather forecast. So I am collating all these thoughts, and will put them together into the discussion on the sport=surfing tag to take it forward, while doing a little experimentation in my local area. Regards, Josh On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 20:48, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > non-Australian and non-surfer here but please remember that stuff you > map in OSM must be reasonably verifiable. > > If you map a great surf spot which only exists when some external > conditions align, then it might be hard for others to verify (they'd > have to wait for the conditions to align). > > As a non-surfer I would assume that "the wind and waves are just right" > is something that could make a perfect surf spot nearly everywhere, and > surfers would not be helped by a map showing lots of spots that might be > great if "the wind and waves are just right" ;) > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
On 24/8/22 20:45, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, non-Australian and non-surfer here but please remember that stuff you map in OSM must be reasonably verifiable. If you map a great surf spot which only exists when some external conditions align, then it might be hard for others to verify (they'd have to wait for the conditions to align). As a non-surfer I would assume that "the wind and waves are just right" is something that could make a perfect surf spot nearly everywhere, and surfers would not be helped by a map showing lots of spots that might be great if "the wind and waves are just right" ;) Mapping the typical would be what interest most as that would be the more frequent thing and therefore the most usefull. Using conditional tagging it should be possible to specify the right conditions.??? Something like waterway:conditional=surf_break @ NE swell surf_break=right I'd assume that the local swell is more important than the local wind? Verifiable ... well non surfers won't be that interested particularly if it does not render on common maps. That also reduces the number of non surfers who would use the tags to get something on the map. So I think only the surfers will be looking at these and they should understand the verification of them and if they are infrequent then they may not be of much interest unless significant enough to have a reputation, and that reputation should be enough to verify the mapping. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
Hi Folks, It might also be good to see how current surf sites rate and classify breaks and try and incorporate common language in the tagging https://www.wannasurf.com/spot/Australia_Pacific/Australia/TAS/Hobart/index.html https://www.wannasurf.com/spot/Australia_Pacific/Australia/TAS/Hobart/seven_mile_point/index.html https://surfing-waves.com/atlas/asia/indonesia/bali.html Cheers - Phil From: Andrew Harvey Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2022 2:21 PM To: Jake Coppinger ; Josh Marshall Cc: OSM Aust Discussion List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 at 18:18, Josh Marshall mailto:josh.p.marsh...@gmail.com> > wrote: Are there any concerns on me taking the idea and running with it? It would be good at least to flesh out the wiki page on what tags can or should be applied. I already have a spreadsheet from the grommie on the various attributes of a surf break (left and right waves, tide/swell/wind required). Does this require a formal proposal? My own pause relates to how even though surf breaks are physical locations (would be mapped as either areas or points), they are tied to underwater features and topography such as reefs, not necessarily visible from the surface. And so will rely heavily on local knowledge. But if not rendered by default, there’s no problem with that, right? It would be great to see surf breaks better mapped! I would suggest just start tagging ones you know well, invent your own tags, no proposal needed so you can be liberal with experimenting with the tags and how the features are represented. Over time I'd recommend documenting your tags on the wiki, if eventually into a proposal, to gain a more global point of view and consensus. natural=surf_break surf_break=* (beach, reef, shipwreck, etc) sport=surfing name=* if named Points or areas should be good. Would linear ways make sense sometimes? Right hand side could indicate direction waves break? On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 13:45, Jake Coppinger mailto:j...@jakecoppinger.com> > wrote: > tl;dr - I’m interested in getting more surfing-centric tagging into OSM, > hopefully leading to an open surfing map. As an avid surfer (Sydney region) and OSM contributor I love the sound of this! Something I note that is missing on the wiki (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsurfing) is how to tag something when surfing isn't an option at a beach - the absence of `sport=surfing` on a beach node may just mean it hasn't been surveyed yet. Being able to query all surfable (or exclude non-surfable) beaches would be great for a road trip or choosing a campsite. For example, Brighton-Le-Sands never has waves as it's in Botany Bay. `sport=none` wouldn't make sense as it's a great spot for windsurfing (and beach cricket etc :D). Is there space for a tag like `surfing=unsuitable` or `waves=minimal` to be added to a `natural=beach`? If we could start over I'd advocate for natural=coastline on the land/sea border only, and natural=shoreline for other borders. Would it be safe to assume beaches along the sea/ocean edge are surf beaches and beaches along bays or harbours are not? surfing=yes/no should act like the rest of the access tags, meaning are you allowed to surf or not, rather than is it any good for surfing. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
Hi, non-Australian and non-surfer here but please remember that stuff you map in OSM must be reasonably verifiable. If you map a great surf spot which only exists when some external conditions align, then it might be hard for others to verify (they'd have to wait for the conditions to align). As a non-surfer I would assume that "the wind and waves are just right" is something that could make a perfect surf spot nearly everywhere, and surfers would not be helped by a map showing lots of spots that might be great if "the wind and waves are just right" ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 14:24, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > Points or areas should be good. Would linear ways make sense sometimes? > Right hand side could indicate direction waves break? > How would you go with areas that only work on occasion, usually when the wind & waves are just right e.g. https://www.surfline.com/surf-news/what-makes-superbank-sand-snapper-kirra-greenmount/48459 ? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
