Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Phil Wyatt via Talk-au]

I have also contacted Stephen privately to see if he wants to chat

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:54 PM
To: Andrew Welch 
Cc: Mark Pulley ; OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List 

Subject: Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

 

NPWS have now contacted DWG again.

 

I was in the process of responding to his comments, was up to ~10 paragraphs, 
then hit the wrong button in our DWG system & deleted the lot!!! :-(

 

That's well & truly enough for today so I'll try again (after trying to 
remember what I said!) tomorrow.

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

 

 

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 16:10, Andrew Welch via Talk-au 
mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:

I think it might also be important to state that OSM is a database, so if 
consumers aren’t rendering tracks properly if tagged as such, the issue is with 
them not us, and that what they are doing can be considered as vandalism by 
mappers. We have ways to reflect the current state, and ensure that mappers 
unaware of these discussions won’t go ahead and re-add the trails. 

 

Thanks,

Andrew Welch

m...@andrewwelch.net  

 

 

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 3:45 pm, Mark Pulley mailto:mrpul...@iinet.net.au> > wrote:

I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:

 

I had replied privately:

 

Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the 
talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the understanding 
that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but that did not 
eventuate.

For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the mailing 
list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my changeset 
regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back to the 
mailing list for further discussion.

 

I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.

 

He has replied to me:

 

I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed about 
the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground from 
OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks and 
Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request, have been 
removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce them.

It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land, and as 
part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these paths to be 
displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS wishes but also 
requires additional work hours from their end to rectify the situation.

It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to remove 
these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary challenges. I urge 
you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding these paths back onto 
OpenStreetMap.

Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will contribute to 
the effective management of the area.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the changeset, 
or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private messages, as I don’t 
want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks to tonyf1 who has made the 
same suggestion on the changeset.)

 

Mark P.





On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley mailto:mrpul...@iinet.net.au> > wrote:

 

I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had deleted 
these last time):

 

Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service has 
officially closed the track.

“Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by myself 
30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”

Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate its 
removal once again by NPWS.

 

So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.

I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been 
officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per our 
request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."

It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.

I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no (rather 
than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!

 

Mark P.





On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley mailto:mrpul...@iinet.net.au> > wrote:

 

Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352


Mark P.

 

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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

NPWS have now contacted DWG again.

I was in the process of responding to his comments, was up to ~10
paragraphs, then hit the wrong button in our DWG system & deleted the
lot!!! :-(

That's well & truly enough for today so I'll try again (after trying to
remember what I said!) tomorrow.

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 16:10, Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I think it might also be important to state that OSM is a database, so if
> consumers aren’t rendering tracks properly if tagged as such, the issue is
> with them not us, and that what they are doing can be considered as
> vandalism by mappers. We have ways to reflect the current state, and ensure
> that mappers unaware of these discussions won’t go ahead and re-add the
> trails.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew Welch
> m...@andrewwelch.net
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 3:45 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>
>> I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:
>>
>> I had replied privately:
>>
>> Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the
>> talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the
>> understanding that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but
>> that did not eventuate.
>> For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the
>> mailing list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my
>> changeset regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back
>> to the mailing list for further discussion.
>>
>> I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.
>>
>> He has replied to me:
>>
>> I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed
>> about the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground
>> from OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks
>> and Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request,
>> have been removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce
>> them.
>> It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land,
>> and as part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these
>> paths to be displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS
>> wishes but also requires additional work hours from their end to rectify
>> the situation.
>> It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to
>> remove these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary
>> challenges. I urge you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding
>> these paths back onto OpenStreetMap.
>> Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will
>> contribute to the effective management of the area.
>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>
>> I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the
>> changeset, or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private
>> messages, as I don’t want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks
>> to tonyf1 who has made the same suggestion on the changeset.)
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>> On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had
>> deleted these last time):
>>
>> Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
>> has officially closed the track.
>> “Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by
>> myself 30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
>> Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate
>> its removal once again by NPWS.
>>
>> So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
>> I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been
>> officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per
>> our request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
>> It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
>> I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no
>> (rather than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>> On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>>
>> Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Andrew Welch via Talk-au]

I think it might also be important to state that OSM is a database, so if
consumers aren’t rendering tracks properly if tagged as such, the issue is
with them not us, and that what they are doing can be considered as
vandalism by mappers. We have ways to reflect the current state, and ensure
that mappers unaware of these discussions won’t go ahead and re-add the
trails.

Thanks,
Andrew Welch
m...@andrewwelch.net


On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 3:45 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:

> I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:
>
> I had replied privately:
>
> Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the
> talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the
> understanding that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but
> that did not eventuate.
> For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the
> mailing list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my
> changeset regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back
> to the mailing list for further discussion.
>
> I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.
>
> He has replied to me:
>
> I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed
> about the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground
> from OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks
> and Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request,
> have been removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce
> them.
> It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land,
> and as part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these
> paths to be displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS
> wishes but also requires additional work hours from their end to rectify
> the situation.
> It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to
> remove these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary
> challenges. I urge you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding
> these paths back onto OpenStreetMap.
> Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will contribute
> to the effective management of the area.
> Thank you for your understanding.
>
> I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the
> changeset, or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private
> messages, as I don’t want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks
> to tonyf1 who has made the same suggestion on the changeset.)
>
> Mark P.
>
> On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>
> I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had
> deleted these last time):
>
> Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
> has officially closed the track.
> “Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by
> myself 30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
> Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate
> its removal once again by NPWS.
>
> So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
> I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been
> officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per
> our request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
> It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
> I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no
> (rather than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!
>
> Mark P.
>
> On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>
> Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352
>
> Mark P.
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Mark Pulley]

I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:

I had replied privately:

Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the 
talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the understanding 
that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but that did not 
eventuate.
For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the mailing 
list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my changeset 
regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back to the 
mailing list for further discussion.

I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.

He has replied to me:

I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed about 
the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground from 
OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks and 
Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request, have been 
removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce them.
It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land, and as 
part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these paths to be 
displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS wishes but also 
requires additional work hours from their end to rectify the situation.
It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to remove 
these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary challenges. I urge 
you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding these paths back onto 
OpenStreetMap.
Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will contribute to 
the effective management of the area.
Thank you for your understanding.

I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the changeset, 
or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private messages, as I don’t 
want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks to tonyf1 who has made the 
same suggestion on the changeset.)

Mark P.

> On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
> 
> I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had deleted 
> these last time):
> 
> Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service has 
> officially closed the track.
> “Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by 
> myself 30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
> Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate its 
> removal once again by NPWS.
> 
> So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
> I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been 
> officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per our 
> request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
> It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
> I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no (rather 
> than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!
> 
> Mark P.
> 
>> On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>> 
>> Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352
>> 
>> Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Mark Pulley]

I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had deleted 
these last time):

Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service has 
officially closed the track.
“Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by myself 
30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate its 
removal once again by NPWS.

So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been 
officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per our 
request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no (rather 
than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!

Mark P.

> On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
> 
> Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352
> 
> Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Bob Cameron]

Hi Mark

Although not anywhere conclusive I made a Mapillary capture outbound on 
Woore Street Wilcannia 5/2022 that shows what are likely to be the dual 
50/100 transition signs (smudges) well before the changeset. Might be 
useful..


Bob

On 19/2/24 20:19, Mark Pulley wrote:
I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the 
oldest changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets 
don’s specify a source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - 
on outskirts of Wilcannia

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee

Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ 
who had travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info 
regarding the source of this information.


I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and 
NSW Speed Data’:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of 
Kempsey from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from 
’someone’ who had travelled on those roads.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway 
near Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed 
this maxspeed, and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No 
reply regarding this one.


How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available 
imagery for every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW 
Speed Data ones?


Mark P.

On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  
wrote:


No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from 
everything we can tell they imported the data without any other cross 
checks and didn't follow the import guidelines.


On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley  wrote:

I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from
my last holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any
objections?

Mark P.


On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey
 wrote:

We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like

1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and
replacing existing data with the imported data
2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to
make these changes), since their changesets are all the same,
importing speed limits, except for one Local Knowledge changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.

If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go
through the proper process, so based on and the issues you've
rased it should be fine to revert all their affected changes and
then ask going forward to go through the import guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.


On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley 
wrote:

Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence
suitable for importing into OSM? Also, is it generally
accurate?
https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones

https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw

The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads
with speed zones updated based on this data. The biggest
problem is that the changes made in these three changesets
were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed maxspeeds were
updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the
original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603

Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I
haven’t checked the accuracy of them.

Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the oldest 
changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets don’s specify a 
source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - on 
outskirts of Wilcannia
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee

Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ who had 
travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info regarding the source of 
this information.

I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and NSW Speed 
Data’:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of Kempsey 
from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from ’someone’ who had 
travelled on those roads.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway near 
Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed this maxspeed, 
and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No reply regarding this one.

How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available imagery for 
every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW Speed Data ones?

Mark P.

> On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from everything we can 
> tell they imported the data without any other cross checks and didn't follow 
> the import guidelines.
> 
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley  > wrote:
>> I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last 
>> holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?
>> 
>> Mark P.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
>>>  however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like
>>> 
>>> 1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and replacing 
>>> existing data with the imported data
>>> 2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to make these 
>>> changes), since their changesets are all the same, importing speed limits, 
>>> except for one Local Knowledge changeset 
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.
>>> 
>>> If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go through the 
>>> proper process, so based on and the issues you've rased it should be fine 
>>> to revert all their affected changes and then ask going forward to go 
>>> through the import guidelines 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley >> > wrote:
 Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for 
 importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
 https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
 https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
 
 The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed 
 zones updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes 
 made in these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously 
 surveyed maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 
 2023 the original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one). 
 
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
 
 Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked 
 the accuracy of them.
 
 Mark P.
 
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 Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
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