Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
Hi everyone, Firstly, a qualification:I've not read the Wiki on this subject, so this is simply my opinion without the support of guidelines/rules/etc. I believe, having authored/compiled some detail Magellan maps for eXplorist GPSrs this year, that more important than guidelines or rules that are documented, there needs to be a hierarchy in the data. Obviously, a city in Europe will be much larger than one in Australia, and similarly, ours will be much larger than those in more remote countries. And the size differs, not only in population, but also in geographical area (since population densities also vary). For example, let me just describe the east coast of N.S.W., centred on Sydney: I reckon Sydney, Newcastle, and Wollongong are no-brainers - they're cities. But also, Gosford and Wyong on the Central Coast should be classified the same. Now, while I'm sure such places as Parramatta are also cities (I've not verified this, but I'm pretty sure), from a mapping perspective, Sydney is probably all that is needed. So, on a broad view, you will see Sydney, with Newcastle to the north, and Wollongong to the South, as well as Gosford/Wyong midway between Sydney Newcastle. The next level should then be those centres within the metropolitan areas which warrant attention: in Sydney, such places as Strathfield, Parramatta, Penrith, Chatswood, Hornsby, Hurstville Sutherland (plus, I'm sure there are others). IMHO, keeping sight of the end-use (i.e. a map) is more important than strictly applying a rule based purely on numbers (although, when in doubt, these can be helpful). So places like Parramatta might not be classified as cities when in fact they are, while others in more remote parts of our country might be classified, even though they might not be cities. Any thoughts? Cheers,Paul. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
Hi Everyone, I've been watching this thread, but for the most part have considered it beyond my area of expertise/experience. I do own a 4WD, but not the serious sort that might be required for some of the extreme conditions which have been described. (Okay, it's an Outback - so a decent vehicle, but not purchased for such purposes described on this thread). However, I do think it IS a worthwhile discussion, and certainly one worthy of resolution. Now for my two cents worth... Adrian made the following comment:...there must be a visual and electronic indication that a major road is unsealed or requires a specialised vehicle - Having just re-read Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman's Long Way Round, it occurs to me that in many of these countries (at least, once they left Europe) the roads(?) described might warrant OSM classification as Primary at the very least, perhaps even Trunk in some instances. And yet, they put their bikes on a train to bypass some of these horrors! And of course, similar circumstances can be found througout the Australian Outback. And BTW, are river crossings tagged sufficiently (thinking back to the Long Way Round)? I haven't checked, but you 4WD enthusiasts probably know... So I AGREE, some method of rendering to represent the condition of these roads (despite their hierarchy) would be invaluable. Cheers,Paul. -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:42:59 +1100 From: Adrian Plaskitt adrianplask...@hotmail.com To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. Message-ID: bay170-w62d1663b55b01b24ec62add2...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, adrian here, yeah don't assume no rpelies means no support - Ive just been waiting for the its time to vote email. Think that the idea for extending tracktype is great. Think that the argument to use is that if OSM wants to be considered global then it is just common sense that there must be a visual and electronic indication that a major road is unsealed or requires a specialised vehicle - there are many places in the world where this is the case. And I think there is nothing to be feared in subjectivity - all mapping is subjective, in the end. Otheriwise we would tag a road with width, surface,colour, construction method, traffic flow, traffic destination, speedlimit etc and ask the renderer to deduce that it is a primary or secondary road. This process has been formalised in the case of most roads by a governemnet agency - but it is still subjective - we are just all so used to it that it seems objective. Subjective information from a local oe experienced traveller - is invaluable and should be embraced - not discouraged. That's why guide books and sketch maps are still widely used in specialist applications - eg bushwalking, skiing, rockclimbing etc. So roll on election day.. Cheers. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Lanes tag
Hi John, It occurs to me there's at least one other case which warrants tagging the lanes - a two-way road (or section thereof) having only a single lane. I.E. when there are LESS than one in each direction, making passing difficult or unsafe at normal speeds. Any thoughts? Cheers, Paul. -- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:11:07 +1100 From: John Henderson snow...@gmx.com To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] dirt roads Message-ID: 508359bb.6040...@gmx.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 21/10/12 12:03, dban...@internode.on.net wrote: lanes=[1; 2] I thing the lanes tag is best not used, unless there's more than two marked lanes on a two-way road, or more than one lane on a one-way road. This is the recommendation in the Australian tagging guidelines: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Roads_Tagging#Number_of_lanes I have two reasons for arguing this. Firstly, it's something else that would need checking when doing OSM maintenance (and quite unnecessarily). And it's something else to get wrong if it's used routinely. It's easier for everybody if its used is reserved for the special cases. Secondly, as an active mapper, I often download the whole of Australia every week for use as route-proving on my Garmin GPSs. If every road in Australia had a lanes tag, that'd be a lot more data to download... John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] News on national border
Hi Michael, I've no copy of your old method, but from what I recall this seems to be an improvement - metres in lieu of approximating degrees AND not having to close the line should both produce a better result. I especially like that more detail can be included as mapping proceeds. Great work! Cheers, Paul. -Original Message- From: Michael Krämer Sent: 29 Sep 2012 13:58:42 GMT To: Talk-AU OSM,Ian Sergeant,Paul HAYDON Subject: News on national border Hi, unfortunately I noticed that the output from the process I had described was not really as good as I wanted it to be. So I did a bunch of refinements over the last couple of days and updated [1] accordingly. The key differences are the use of a projection to improve accuracy and using the tools in a different order to improve the geometry of the output. So now [2] shows the result I would personally suggest to upload as the national border. Michael - [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ohr/Australian_national_border [2] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3882550/OSM/NationalBorder.osm.bz2 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 63, Issue 28
Hey Ben, Nice example. I reckon it's worth mentioning the numbers at Blower's Lane (although on the opposite side of the street) - undoubtedly numbering in this fashion will assist with routing. It's probably been covered in the Wiki, and most likely in this forum previously, but worthy of pointing out again, nonetheless. Great job! Cheers,Paul. Hi, For fast numbering, you might want to check out the technique I tried for Wharf Street, Forster NSW. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.18045lon=152.51021zoom=17layers=M This uses the address interpolation technique. I wasn't sure at the time if I'd done it the right way because nomonatim hadn't been getting updated, but since then it has... and I can tell you it works a treat! If you search for any valid number on Wharf Street Forster it will point you there with surprising accuracy. Just draw a parallel way from corner to corner with start/end numbers and tell it whether odd or even. Very nice way to quickly make the map massively more useable. Search the wiki for more details. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National borders
Hi Michael, Nicely documented. Much of the process (on the OSM side at least) is beyond my current experience, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for sharing. As for the alternative process you mention, would the joining of line segments be done in OSM/JOSM/etc, or elsewhere (such as QGIS)? If the latter, then perhaps just process in QGIS as you have to date? I don't know if it will be of any assistance, but here is an article I bookmarked some months back when I was joining lines in QGIS to generate ocean polygons for my custom GPS maps (it utilises GRASS):http://spatialguru.com/line_to_polygons_grass_in_qgis Hope it helps. Cheers,Paul. Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:04:37 +0200 From: ohr...@gmail.com To: inas66+...@gmail.com; talk-au@openstreetmap.org CC: cadmana...@live.com.au Subject: Re: [talk-au] National borders Hi, Am 21.09.2012 23:26, schrieb Ian Sergeant: 1. Document accurately the process you have used Well, this part is done: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_national_border 2. Note the activity required to increase the accuracy (reefs, bay closure) I've already added some notes on the page. 3. Upload the borders currently there (things aren't working properly right now). This would be one of the next steps if we agree on this process. 4. Work to increase the accuracy. 5. Update the borders accordingly. This sound pretty good to me. Michael ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National borders
Hi Michael, I'm keen to read up on the process, so that I learn a little more about the mapping workflows on OSM. And happy to help, so let me know if I can be of any assistance. BTW, won't the bays be self closing during buffer creation (if the mouth is less than the offset)? Cheers, Paul. -Original Message- From: Michael Krämer Sent: 21 Sep 2012 17:24:23 GMT To: Ian Sergeant,Talk-AU OSM,Paul HAYDON Subject: Re: [talk-au] National borders Hi, finally I got the process sorted out to generate a border from natural=coastline, natural=reef and the baseline segments. The resulting osm-file can be found at [1]. Using the dataset I also updated the picture from the post below to show the differences [2]. It doesn't look that bad everywhere but especially along the Queensland coast that's not the only place like this. So no my question is how we should move on from here. I see different options: - Upload the dataset as is - Try to get it better e.g. by * manually by adding baseline segments (close bays, low water) * do a more accurate buffer computation * trace more reefs from Bing * ... - dump the idea and look for a better one - ... BTW this time I've taken notes so if anyone is interested I could share the process I've used. The processing hasn't been too acurate given the limitations of the data. Especially I used a buffer of 0.2 degrees instead of exactly 12 nautical miles so the distance is always a bit too short. Michael - [1] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3882550/OSM/NationalBorder.osm.bz2 [2] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3882550/OSM/ComputedCoastline.png ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] APOLOGIES: Hacked Email
Everyone, Please accept my apologies for the spam which was sent to this address during the week. Access was gained to my email account without my knowledge. The password has been changed, and that would appear to have righted the situation. Cheers,Paul. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National borders (was: import of state borders?)
Hi guys, Not sure if this will be of any help - but it can't hurt, right? I've recently used Quantum GIS (QGIS) to create a region about my GPS routes so as to capture the fuel stops (for example, within 10km of my chosen path). I would think if someone could establish the coastline as a perimeter, then it could be generated by the same means. I'm not sure what distance the territorial waters go to, but undoubtedly there's somebody more knowledgable than myself on this forum. QGIS can read OSM files, although I should think it easier to use .shp if available. Perhaps even start with one of the less detailed datasets available freely (ie. smaller scale) in order to get the information out there (presumably the boundary is more important with some inaccuracies than not existing at all - otherwise we become a part of N.Z.!!!). Anyway, I'd be happy to collaborate on this if you think it will help. Cheers, Paul. Message: 3 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:26:51 +0200 From: Michael Kr?mer ohr...@gmail.com To: Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com, talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] National borders (was: import of state borders?) Message-ID: caduoafwwvn9w_os79spruxwg0v79gdosv1bj+rozhg1usbd...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 2012/8/30 Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com It looks like we've finished the NSW/Victoria border. There are probably a couple of bits I'll go back to and touch up, but otherwise looking good. Yes, I think now all land borders are completely mapped. Nice piece of work. So, what's next to complete the national/state borders? Good question, I would probably start with the national border. These maritime boundaries are rather messy, just have a look at the yellow line and the brown area in [1] or read the description there. For this I see two different methods: (a) Do the pure-OSM approach by deriving everything from the coastline with some guessing for the straight segments. (b) Try to get permission to use the official data [3] Here I would definetly favor (b) - simply because to me the only accurate definition of the baseline is the official one. But of course I don't know at all if there is a chance to get the permission to use the data in OSM. If this doesn't work we would have to work on using the coastline, somehow generate a baseline, and from there calculate the territorial waters. The piece looking most diffcult to me would be to generate the baseline, given the topography of Australia's coastline and/or looking at [1]. Any thoughts or suggestions are highly welcome! Michael ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National borders (was: import of state borders?)
Hey Michael, Thanks - that made for interesting reading on a subject I knew so little about. And I agree with you, that the best course of action is to obtain the data officially. But in the event of failure/refusal, I'm happy to help out. BTW, in QGIS it's Vector / Geoprocessing Tools / Buffer(s) - and I seem to recall some issue with the number/scale (read: map units), but I managed to work my way through it previously. I worked off .gpx files (my converted Magellan GPS route files), but I cannot imagine the procedure being any different as long as the data is obtained in vector format. Like you, I might need just a slight refresher :-) See how you go with the permissions, but if there's an issue with AUS not having that border we could simply apply the buffer to the coastline in the interim, could we not? Cheers,Paul. Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 06:43:42 +0200 Subject: Re: National borders (was: import of state borders?) From: ohr...@gmail.com To: cadmana...@live.com.au; talk-au@openstreetmap.org Hi Paul, 2012/8/31 Paul HAYDON cadmana...@live.com.au I've recently used Quantum GIS (QGIS) to create a region about my GPS routes so as to capture the fuel stops (for example, within 10km of my chosen path). I would think if someone could establish the coastline as a perimeter, then it could be generated by the same means. Yes, the offset/buffer can be calculated with QGIS. I've done this before, unfortunately I didn't take any notes at that time so I would have to find my way again. But the key problem is that the boundary is not calculated from the coastline directly. Instead of the coastline an artificial line called baseline is used (cf. [1]). Bascially this cuts off a couple of bays - (the black areas in [2]). So looking at [2] the baseline (and border) run from the northern tip of Fraser island straight west towards Bundaberg. If you would to the calculation from the coastline the border would rather have a bend to the south inbetween. That's why I personally would prefer trying to get import permission as and only use the coastline as a backup solution. I'm not sure what distance the territorial waters go to, That's the easy part: It's 12 nautical miles (from the baseline). Anyway, I'd be happy to collaborate on this if you think it will help. You're definetly welcome! Michael [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dmaritime [2] http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA3746.pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Establishing Priorities on the Central Coast
Hi Ben, I'd really like to establish those (re-)mapping tasks, but lack the experience with OSM to lead it. Would you fancy collaborating? I think someone with your experience would be invaluable. My suggestion would be as follows: 1. Coastline (I think mostly okay) 2. Water bodies (already started) 3. Railways 4. Motorway / freeway 5. Trunk / primary / secondary / tertiary (ideal opportunity to discuss classification) 6. Local 7. Tracks etc. (Get those 4B enthusiasts involved) 8. Waterways 9. Paths / cycleways NOTE: Nos 7-9 need not be relegated to last - those with local knowledge (and an interest in those areas) can jump right in. Same for #3 (I nominate you!)... SO, any takers interested in getting organised on the N.S.W. Central Coast? (For arguement's sake, let's call it Woy Woy to Swansea - unless someone has a preferred recommendation). Let me know... Cheers, Paul. -Original Message- From: Ben Johnson Sent: 23 Jul 2012 17:58:34 GMT To: Paul HAYDON Cc: Talk-AU OSM Subject: Re: [talk-au] Re-Mapping (RE: various posts) Paul, The road hierarchy on the Central Coast (and everywhere) is, i guess, based on a combination of contributor perceptions and people trying to make sense of guidelines in the OSM wiki. There will always be debate about road classifications because so many factors can justify the relative importance of a road, and those criteria vary from country to country. Once the RTA (or RMS or whatever they're called this week) get around to removing all those pesky green cover-plates off the road signs to reveal the new routes I think we'll have a clearer picture. I doubt SR83 will exist for much longer - certainly not via Donnison Street at least, but possibly a new B route via Manns Road. There's a swag of local streets and classifications in our area that need review... so if you believe something is wrong and you have sound reasoning, then feel free to change them. Ben Sent from my iPad On 21/07/2012, at 9:51, Paul HAYDON cadmana...@live.com.au wrote: How is the road network hierarchy established? Consult any number of maps (internet and other) and you'll see differing arrangements (esp. trunk/primary, but also what qualifies as secondary tertiary). For example, on the Central Coast of N.S.W., the motorway/freeway is simple, and the Central Coast Hwy was tagged as trunk (now decimated, certainly around The Entrance). The Pacific Hwy north of Gosford is only tagged primary, so clearly not as simple as road-type. Google Maps has it reversed (Pacific Hwy more important), but Bing does not. Just wondering... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] REMAPPING: Shorelines on the NSW Central Coast
Hi all, Can anyone give me a heads-up as to how we've traditionally sourced coastlines for OSM? Actually, if it now differs due to licensing, then the best way forward - I'd like to re-establish the shores for Tuggerah Lakes as a starting point. Cheers, Paul. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Introduction Brett Russell (Ent)
Hi Brett (et al), Firstly, this is my first post on an OSM forum, so apologies if I get anything wrong (etiquette, format, etc.). These forums are somewhat less sophisticated than others on which I've contributed. IMHO, you'll find most of the data on OSM to exhibit a car-bias - it's the nature of the beast, because that's where the interest of most contributors lie (myself included). But there is some data of use for cyclists and walkers, which continues to grow thanks to the efforts of contributors such as yourself. I've used the OSM data for production of Magellan custom (detail) maps for use with my eXplorist XL, primarily when motorcycle touring, and so have become somewhat familiar with its content. But I recently included cycleways and pedestrian paths, based on requests on another forum with which I'm involved. I cannot comment/help regarding Garmin issues, but am most certainly willing to discuss the same items at a more conceptual level - for example the display of map detail at various zoom levels. I've been through that whole saga (although, again, based about road-use) with the Magellan maps. I know you're adding detail yourself, but if you find what is available on OSM to be insufficient, Brett, you might try MapConnect at Geoscience Australia (http://www.ga.gov.au/topographic-mapping/mapconnect.html) - I'm told their tracks and trails enjoy better coverage than OSM, and can be downloaded in various file formats (I use *.shp for vector maps). As for contours, I abandoned them because they slowed down my GPSr dramatically, but you, of course, will have a greater need for them on foot. Newer devices than my XL (circa 2006) might cater for that type of data more adequately. If you're looking for an alternative to tethering your iPhone, some of the SIM providers offer good prepaid data plans, but consider the performance of the network (Telstra, Optus, etc.) before proceeding. I use Amaysim (Optus network) - 10GB for $100 is valid for 12mths - with a wireless hotspot modem FWIW. Anyway, good luck with your mapping. Get in touch if you think there might be something with which I might be able to assist. Cheers,Paul. Message: 5 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:15:09 +1030 From: Brett Russell brussell...@live.com.au To: OSM Australia mailing list talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] Introduction Brett Russell (Ent) Message-ID: snt130-w2492c0f89b65e336d14557af...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi All First the hardware PC = ASUS NX90 (I7) running Windows Home Premium 64 bit version. GPS = Garmin 62s Phone = iPhone Software Ok, I have just installed the java development kit. This must be a different version to the Java I installed to get JOSM working. Now when I type java in any directory it is acknowledge. So thanks guys progress has been made. I have downloaded mkgmap before and it appears to at least be there when I run java mkgmap. So me thinks I have the basics there. splitter-r200 is downloaded Purpose I am a bushwalking in Tasssie and have been using Garmins maps and have become rather dissatisfied with them. They have good detail on lakes but nothing on walking tracks and the mountains are in the wrong place and even have the wrong names. Shonky is missing detail but was a great freebie. I am getting into more off track walking so I am hoping to use OSM to develop maps. A key feature missing from Garmin Maps (tracks aside) is land use such as clearings/heath. It is remarkably easy from the satellite maps to spot potential camp sites so be great to mark them for looking at on the ground. I have been playing with the IMG file for Tasmania from OSM website, both routable and standard and like what I see but they are optimised for vehicles with foot tracks not showing unto at the 300 metre scale is zoomed to. As do mountains. This means you are navigating at the micro level when these features should be at the macro level. Huts is another item that needs to show up on macro level. At the moment I have Contour 5M on my Garmin and load it over OSM. This is a reasonable solution but looking for a more elegant one. Especially one that will enable me to use Garmin Basecamp at homebase with contours. Hence lookimg to combine contours with OSM. I hear someone say, cyclemap. They are rather non existent for Tassie and also very slow to update. Also on website bombarded me with requests for donations I gave up downloading anything. I have tried my iPhone running various app that use tiles and honestly the vector mapping system kills tiles. The vector data is up-to-date while tiles can be weeks behind and massive download sizes at the finer scales. Tiles seem to me rather paper based logic while vector is jet age. Now time to dig I foxhole and hide from the flame throwers. Because the map data is so basic for Tassie I am
