[talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Richard Colless]

The trip to Timor Caves went well - now have "tourist" POI's for four
of the caves, although it's a brave tourist that will use them.

Also managed to survey most of the streets of Murrurundi, NSW.

During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of
Murrurundi, there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's
visible when in Edit mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the
View mode. It also didn't appear on my Garmin when I approached it. 

The relevant map is:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.76424&lon=150.83552&zoom=15

The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very
nice park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is
something you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that
can be done to make it appear?

I added in a POI for a nearby mountain (Wallabadah Rock - East of
Murrurundi), and it appears on the View mode and on the GPS. So does
the Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed
camera? Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they
don't show up in View mode either?

Richard




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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/3 Richard Colless :
> During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of Murrurundi,
> there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's visible when in Edit

That would be my handy work :) I've marked in quite a few I had co-ords for...

> mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the View mode. It also didn't
> appear on my Garmin when I approached it.

No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
to them.

> The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very nice
> park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is something
> you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that can be done to
> make it appear?

Speed cameras are a bit of a mess tagging wise, some add a node others
add a relation, but I don't think any method renders on OSM...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Speed_trap
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:enforcement
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Traffic_enforcement
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_Signs

etc...

> Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed camera?
> Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they don't show up
> in View mode either?

You are talking tagging v rendering, not everything tagged is
rendered, because the amount of things that could be possibly tagged
is almost limitless, but you really don't want everything showing up
on a map, and it doesn't look like anyone has asked for speed cameras
to be rendered.

Usually having this information to give you an audible warning would
be better than a visual warning, since you don't have to look away
from the road :)

The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
also...

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Richard Colless wrote:
> The trip to Timor Caves went well - now have "tourist" POI's for four of 
> the caves, although it's a brave tourist that will use them.
> 
> Also managed to survey most of the streets of Murrurundi, NSW.
> 
> During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of 
> Murrurundi, there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's visible 
> when in Edit mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the View mode. 
> It also didn't appear on my Garmin when I approached it.

Likewise, I've added a few speed cameras around Canberra, and they're 
invisible.

My Garmin Nuvi doesn't recognise them either.  I strongly suspect that 
there's something proprietary about Garmin's own speed camera data, 
(where or how it's stored in the GPS).  It is after all a Garmin 
"separately-priced product".

> The relevant map is:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.76424&lon=150.83552&zoom=15 
> 
> 
> The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very 
> nice park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is 
> something you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that 
> can be done to make it appear?
> 
> I added in a POI for a nearby mountain (Wallabadah Rock - East of 
> Murrurundi), and it appears on the View mode and on the GPS. So does the 
> Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed 
> camera? Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they 
> don't show up in View mode either?

Likewise for waterway=waterfall and a host of other things.  If 
appropriate, giving a POI a name and adding the tourism=attraction tag 
will render it at high zoom levels.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

John Smith wrote:

> The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
> noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
> also...

On this issue, I've noticed that adding the maxspeed tag to ways does 
influence routing choice on Garmins (when they're set to use shortest 
time for routing choice).

With that in mind, I've been adding the maxspeed tag to suburban streets 
which have a classification above "residential".  Otherwise the Garmin 
assumes highway speeds for these.

In route simulation mode, my Garmin Nuvi thoughtfully shows me exactly 
what speed is being simulated as it travels the virtual route.

In fact, my Nuvi recognises only these speeds:

20 km/h
30 km/h
50 km/h
70 km/h
90 km/h
100 km/h
130 km/h

and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if 
maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get 
simulated as 90, and so on.

If I put a maximum speed into mkgmap based on highway tags, then the 
behaviour is more complicated.  Here the speed gets rounded up, but 
properly rounded so that 50 stays 50, 70 stays 70, and so on.  However, 
if a way has a specific maxspeed tag, then the speed is treated as per 
the previous paragraph.

So bizarrely, if I set up mkgmap so that the highway=unclassified and 
surface=unpaved combination means a speed of 70 km/h then the simulation 
is done at 70 km/h.  But if the unclassified unpaved way also has a 
maxspeed=70 tag, then the simulation is done at 90 km/h

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

I wrote:

> So bizarrely, if I set up mkgmap so that the highway=unclassified and 
> surface=unpaved combination means a speed of 70 km/h then the simulation 
> is done at 70 km/h.

Done in the mkgmap "lines" style file like this:

highway=unclassified & surface=unpaved [0x06 road_class=0 road_speed=3 
resolution 21]

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Liz]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote:
> It also didn't
> 
> > appear on my Garmin when I approached it.
> 
> No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
> some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
> to them.
> 
They are in a binary file which can be edited in some "POI uploader" and then 
transferred to the Garmin under Windows, as I recall.


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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Roy Wallace]

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 10:13 PM, John Smith  wrote:
>
> Speed cameras are a bit of a mess tagging wise, some add a node others
> add a relation, but I don't think any method renders on OSM...
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Speed_trap
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:enforcement
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Traffic_enforcement
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_Signs
>
> etc...

For the record, being "a bit of a mess tagging wise" is not true. This
relation (approved) should be used:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement

> The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
> noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
> also...

This is incorporated in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement.

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 Roy Wallace :
> For the record, being "a bit of a mess tagging wise" is not true. This
> relation (approved) should be used:

"Approved" just means 17 people (out of 25 that voted, out of maybe
100,000 mappers at the time) thought it was an ok way to do things.

On the other hand, JOSM's preset only does a simple POI node method,
which is how I ended up doing them when I added them in the first
place.

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:14 AM, John Henderson  wrote:

> and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if
> maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get
> simulated as 90, and so on.
>
> Bizarre. Any idea why?

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:14 AM, John Henderson  > wrote:
> 
> and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if
> maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get
> simulated as 90, and so on.
> 
> Bizarre. Any idea why?

I suppose one possibility is an imperial/metric conversion error in 
firmware.

I've read elsewhere that the Garmin speed steps are various multiples of 
10 miles/hour.  The ones I'm seeing aren't - they're rounded to the 
metric system.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 John Henderson :
> Steve Bennett wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:14 AM, John Henderson > > wrote:
>>
>>     and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if
>>     maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get
>>     simulated as 90, and so on.
>>
>> Bizarre. Any idea why?
>
> I suppose one possibility is an imperial/metric conversion error in
> firmware.
>
> I've read elsewhere that the Garmin speed steps are various multiples of
> 10 miles/hour.  The ones I'm seeing aren't - they're rounded to the
> metric system.

Seems like a suggested speed value rather than a max speed value... ?

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Liz wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote:
>> It also didn't
>>
>>> appear on my Garmin when I approached it.
>> No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
>> some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
>> to them.
>>
> They are in a binary file which can be edited in some "POI uploader" and then 
> transferred to the Garmin under Windows, as I recall.

This is a good intro to custom POIs:

http://home.comcast.net/~ghayman3/garmin.gps/pagepoi.06.htm#newbiepoi

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, John Henderson wrote:
> Liz wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote:
> >> It also didn't
> >>
> >>> appear on my Garmin when I approached it.
> >>
> >> No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
> >> some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
> >> to them.
> >
> > They are in a binary file which can be edited in some "POI uploader" and
> > then transferred to the Garmin under Windows, as I recall.
> 
> This is a good intro to custom POIs:
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~ghayman3/garmin.gps/pagepoi.06.htm#newbiepoi
> 
> John
> 
The hassle with those custom POIs is needing the windows stuff to upload them.
Otherwise making the list from OSM data is a programming job.

-- 
Q:  What do you call 15 blondes in a circle?
A:  A dope ring.

Q:  Why do blondes put their hair in ponytails?
A:  To cover up the valve stem.

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/5 Elizabeth Dodd :
> The hassle with those custom POIs is needing the windows stuff to upload them.
> Otherwise making the list from OSM data is a programming job.

Garmin POI format looks like an icon file + csv file inside a zip file...

http://www.mainroads.qld.gov.au/en/Driving-in-Queensland/Maps/Points-of-interest-files.aspx

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

> The hassle with those custom POIs is needing the windows stuff to upload them.
> Otherwise making the list from OSM data is a programming job.

I haven't found the need to load POIs from OSM into either of my Garmin 
units (Nuvi 1250 and PGSmap 76 CSx) yet.

The OSM maps in Garmin format already fully integrate the POIs.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/5 John Henderson :
> The OSM maps in Garmin format already fully integrate the POIs.

But do they give you proximity warnings?

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

John Smith wrote:
> 2010/1/5 John Henderson :
>> The OSM maps in Garmin format already fully integrate the POIs.
> 
> But do they give you proximity warnings?

No, I realised that "fully" was a mistake after I sent that.

What I should have said is that OSM POIs all come up under "Points of 
Interest" in the same way as the ones in the Garmin maps do.

John


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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Steve Bennett]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:02 PM, John Henderson  wrote:

> No, I realised that "fully" was a mistake after I sent that.
>
> What I should have said is that OSM POIs all come up under "Points of
> Interest" in the same way as the ones in the Garmin maps do.
>
>
Yeah, I'm impressed how well that worked. I love it when stuff "just works".
Although the gf was unimpressed when searching for "Howard St" all she could
find was "Howard's Storage World". user error, shall we say.

Steve
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