Re: [talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Warin]

On 11/12/23 22:55, Tom Brennan wrote:
In NSW these are known as Crown Roads, or 'paper roads' (where they 
are not constructed). They are administered by the state government, 
and in theory, access is public. It can be hard to tell just by 
looking at parcel data whether something is a Crown Road or not.


There has been a program in recent years of selling these off to the 
adjacent landholder.


In some cases these provide access to parks and reserves, and letters 
have needed to be written to the Dept of Planning to protest the 
relevant sale.


I assume Victoria probably has a similar system to NSW



Queensland too has similar 'gaps' between land allotments. Some of them 
used by the Bicentennial Trail.





cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 11/12/2023 5:40 pm, Adam Horan wrote:
When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you 
can find
what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in them. (I'm 
looking

on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel 
data you

can see these linear areas that extend off the end of roads, usually in
rural areas. These linear areas do not show parcel information, 
unlike the

surrounding blocks)

They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher land
compared to the fields and paddocks around them.

I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as walking and
running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and also allow others 
to do

so. They're attractive as they're traffic free.

I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I check 
what

the access is?
1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the local
council?
2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple path, 
but

how could I map and tag the land?

Cheers,

Adam

Example 1 :  Lambert Road, Pearcedale
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west to 
meet

with Middle Road.
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h
This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded 
line, when

I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an unfenced section.

Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h

This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be fenced 
off

from the established road.


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Re: [talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Tom and a great question,
I think a lot of this dates back to soldier resettlements after the
first and second wars and that these farmlets were too small to operate
successfully and thus were merged into larger farms so some roads that may
have been required in the past were no longer required and some roads
slated to be developed over time were found to not be required. This has
continued as farms have merged due to improved machinery or that there are
cheaper options to improve other roads to spec by councils.

How to map them? I would be looking at the Strava heatmap to see if there
is any athletic usage but that is not 100% proof. So if there is no path,
no Strava action and little to go on, I would map the area as
grassland/scrub/wood and show the bordering fence lines and perhaps add a
note. In SA, you can clearly see wide corridors for the movement of stock
but is each one still in use on a regular basis? Unfortunately, I don't
think there is a set way to map these so I would map what is on the ground.

Ewen




On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 23:16, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> In NSW these are known as Crown Roads, or 'paper roads' (where they are
> not constructed). They are administered by the state government, and in
> theory, access is public. It can be hard to tell just by looking at
> parcel data whether something is a Crown Road or not.
>
> There has been a program in recent years of selling these off to the
> adjacent landholder.
>
> In some cases these provide access to parks and reserves, and letters
> have needed to be written to the Dept of Planning to protest the
> relevant sale.
>
> I assume Victoria probably has a similar system to NSW
>
> cheers
> Tom
> 
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
> On 11/12/2023 5:40 pm, Adam Horan wrote:
> > When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you can
> find
> > what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in them. (I'm
> looking
> > on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
> > https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel data
> you
> > can see these linear areas that extend off the end of roads, usually in
> > rural areas. These linear areas do not show parcel information, unlike
> the
> > surrounding blocks)
> >
> > They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher land
> > compared to the fields and paddocks around them.
> >
> > I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as walking and
> > running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and also allow others to
> do
> > so. They're attractive as they're traffic free.
> >
> > I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
> > 1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I check
> what
> > the access is?
> > 1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the local
> > council?
> > 2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple path, but
> > how could I map and tag the land?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Example 1 :  Lambert Road, Pearcedale
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
> > If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west to
> meet
> > with Middle Road.
> > https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
> > https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h
> > This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded line,
> when
> > I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an unfenced section.
> >
> > Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
> > https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
> > https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h
> >
> > This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be fenced off
> > from the established road.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-au mailing list
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>
> ___
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>


-- 
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
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Re: [talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Tom Brennan]

In NSW these are known as Crown Roads, or 'paper roads' (where they are 
not constructed). They are administered by the state government, and in 
theory, access is public. It can be hard to tell just by looking at 
parcel data whether something is a Crown Road or not.


There has been a program in recent years of selling these off to the 
adjacent landholder.


In some cases these provide access to parks and reserves, and letters 
have needed to be written to the Dept of Planning to protest the 
relevant sale.


I assume Victoria probably has a similar system to NSW

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 11/12/2023 5:40 pm, Adam Horan wrote:

When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you can find
what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in them. (I'm looking
on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel data you
can see these linear areas that extend off the end of roads, usually in
rural areas. These linear areas do not show parcel information, unlike the
surrounding blocks)

They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher land
compared to the fields and paddocks around them.

I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as walking and
running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and also allow others to do
so. They're attractive as they're traffic free.

I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I check what
the access is?
1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the local
council?
2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple path, but
how could I map and tag the land?

Cheers,

Adam

Example 1 :  Lambert Road, Pearcedale
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west to meet
with Middle Road.
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h
This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded line, when
I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an unfenced section.

Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h

This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be fenced off
from the established road.


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Re: [talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Warin]

Some of these could be 'traveling stock routes' used in the old days to 
drive cattle to market.


Those are administered locally and 'public access' can be dicy depending 
on past activities (eg littering) by 'the public'. Local land owner can 
be 'defensive' from past livestock theft.


Use with caution, possibly best to talk to the local council.

On 11/12/23 19:15, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
In SA, there are a number of "Unmade Road Reserves". Where it gets a 
bit interesting is when someone either illegally fences it off; or 
applies for it to be transferred to them via something like Roads 
(Opening and Closing) Regulations 2021.


Generally, I've mapped these were there is a path, track or similar 
made by people, and where there are gates/restrictions/similar; 
modelled what is seen on the ground + left a note/sent email to 
various councils, who tend to be terrible at replying.


You/ could/ map some of these as "highway: proposed" but there may not 
be much value in it, since a lot of these have been around for decades 
and never turned into roads or other access because it is impractical.


The UK has a similar problem.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access_provisions_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/35408/rights-of-way-mapping-united-kingdom



On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 5:15 PM Adam Horan  wrote:

When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you
can find what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in
them. (I'm looking on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel
data you can see these linear areas that extend off the end of
roads, usually in rural areas. These linear areas do not show
parcel information, unlike the surrounding blocks)

They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher
land compared to the fields and paddocks around them.

I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as
walking and running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and
also allow others to do so. They're attractive as they're traffic
free.

I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I
check what the access is?
1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the
local council?
2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple
path, but how could I map and tag the land?

Cheers,

Adam

Example 1 : Lambert Road, Pearcedale
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west
to meet with Middle Road.
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h

This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded
line, when I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an
unfenced section.

Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h


This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be
fenced off from the established road.



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Re: [talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Daniel O'Connor]

In SA, there are a number of "Unmade Road Reserves". Where it gets a bit
interesting is when someone either illegally fences it off; or applies for
it to be transferred to them via something like Roads (Opening and Closing)
Regulations 2021.

Generally, I've mapped these were there is a path, track or similar made by
people, and where there are gates/restrictions/similar; modelled what is
seen on the ground + left a note/sent email to various councils, who tend
to be terrible at replying.

You* could* map some of these as "highway: proposed" but there may not be
much value in it, since a lot of these have been around for decades and
never turned into roads or other access because it is impractical.

The UK has a similar problem.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access_provisions_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/35408/rights-of-way-mapping-united-kingdom



On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 5:15 PM Adam Horan  wrote:

> When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you can
> find what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in them. (I'm
> looking on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
> https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel data
> you can see these linear areas that extend off the end of roads, usually in
> rural areas. These linear areas do not show parcel information, unlike the
> surrounding blocks)
>
> They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher land
> compared to the fields and paddocks around them.
>
> I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as walking and
> running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and also allow others to do
> so. They're attractive as they're traffic free.
>
> I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
> 1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I check what
> the access is?
> 1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the local
> council?
> 2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple path, but
> how could I map and tag the land?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Adam
>
> Example 1 :  Lambert Road, Pearcedale
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
> If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west to meet
> with Middle Road.
> https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
> https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h
> This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded line,
> when I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an unfenced section.
>
> Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
> https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
> https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h
>
> This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be fenced off
> from the established road.
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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[talk-au] Road corridors with no road - what access?

[Adam Horan]

When comparing satellite imagery and various maps on Vic Maps, you can find
what seem to be road corridors that don't have roads in them. (I'm looking
on https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/ and
https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/ and when you show parcel data you
can see these linear areas that extend off the end of roads, usually in
rural areas. These linear areas do not show parcel information, unlike the
surrounding blocks)

They tend to be visible in sat imagery too as scrubby or rougher land
compared to the fields and paddocks around them.

I would love to be able to legally (and safely) use these as walking and
running routes in my  surrounding countryside, and also allow others to do
so. They're attractive as they're traffic free.

I'll link to some examples below, but I'll ask my questions here:
1. How can I validate if these are unbuilt roads, and how can I check what
the access is?
1a. I guess as these aren't main roads that they belong to the local
council?
2. If a path is already present then I can map that as a simple path, but
how could I map and tag the land?

Cheers,

Adam

Example 1 :  Lambert Road, Pearcedale
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-38.1829/145.2334
If you look on VicMap you can see the corridor extends to the west to meet
with Middle Road.
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-2TIhhoK5rNdNfc4m2WxVtMMraiG
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.182821%7E145.233097=17.8=h
This one seems pretty clear to me as there's a nice clear wooded line, when
I recently passed this on Middle Rd you could see an unfenced section.

Example 2 : NW extension of 'Favorite Hill Rd' to North Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-38.17566/145.23470
https://vic.digitaltwin.terria.io/#share=s-5PIrhAi6EP5M1ivchIyH9lfyGxF
https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=-38.174379%7E145.236276=17.3=h

This one is visible on sat imagery, however it does seem to be fenced off
from the established road.
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