Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[mick]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:29:47 +1100
Darren Burt  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. 
> Hope you can help me help OSM.
> ---
> Hi
> 
> a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, 
> where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a 
> population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg 
> Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most 
> places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'.

Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith, etc retained their political status of city 
long after Sydney swallowed them mostly due to powerful councils clinging to 
their status for good or ill.

In Brisbane up to perhaps a dozen Town Councils were merged (swallowed whole) 
with Brisbane City Council to become the Greater Brisbane City Council in the 
second half of the 20th century but it has been many years since 'Greater' has 
been used in the name.
> 
> b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to 
> town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall 
> station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I 
> would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns.
> 
> These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally 
> expanded organically from a central point.
> 
> c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, 
> they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most 
> cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might 
> be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the 
> West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. 
> And here's where things extrapolate.

The suburbs of cities started as outlying farming or industrial (mining, timber 
getting, etc.) settlements that surrounded the cities and their map placement 
was based on a vague 'centre' of the built-up area. As they developed, along 
with transport and communications services their centre was fixed on the Post 
Office and/or Staging Inn. In time they became the seat of the local government 
area (shire).

With the growth of the near-by city they gradually became swallowed by the 
city, losing their political status and were left as suburbs.

In the case of recently created suburbs, they arise where ever the developers 
can obtain large parcels of farmland to bury under houses and roads and have no 
political history.

> 
> **IMPORTANT**
> Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. 
> My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a 
> matter of inconvenience.
> 
The Apple Maps fiasco occurred due to a failure to clarify weather they were 
marking a town or a shire, a dumb mistake that in Britain would be minor but in 
an Australian context, when combined with the absolute faith people place in 
computers, leads them to ignore obvious valid indicators and turn off major 
highways on to tracks leading nowhere. The Australian bush is unforgiving and 
will soon take the life of the unprepared.

mick

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Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[SomeoneElse]

Darren Burt wrote:


"See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM 
sense."


Can you provide a direct link or forward information on this?



The list archives are here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/

and the city thread started here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2012-December/009710.html

Cheers,
Andy.

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Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[Darren Burt]

"See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense."

Can you provide a direct link or forward information on this?

After being told about the maillist, I went looking for information 
specific for Australia, and there was only date based (monthly) archives 
linked. Unless I indexed the information myself, there appeared to be no 
way to search for information at all.


Appreciate any guidance you can provide. And apologies for future 
questions. About to send in 3...21...


Thanks
Darren

On 20/12/12 21:53, Ben Kelley wrote:


Hi.

Suburb can mean an area bounded by a gazetted boundary. There is a 
sense in which town is similar to suburb, in the sense of how the 
boundary is defined. I am pretty sure the UK is different in this regard.


I don't know if West Pymble is a gazetted suburb (I think yes), but it 
would then have a boundary. The name you see is likely a node, 
possibly placed within the gazetted boundary for West Pymble, or 
possibly not.


See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense.

  - Ben.

On 20/12/2012 9:35 PM, "Darren Burt" > wrote:


Hi

I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you
guys. Hope you can help me help OSM.
---
Hi

I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location
of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to
West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre
located [here][2]. I note the following with respect to Sydney:

a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg
California, where I would have compared many cities to be
'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a
trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown,
Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to
principally as 'suburbs'.

b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went
to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg
Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many
of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to
as towns.

These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally
expanded organically from a central point.

c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the
suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that
area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area.
Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else.
But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the
middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate.

**IMPORTANT**
Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in
Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in
Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience.

I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well.
As I said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong
on some of the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m
acres). Centre of that (geographically) could see you 100s or
1000s of kms away from help, and be life or death.

I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it
refers to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is
meant to be the geographic centre or some other type of centre.
This need clarification.

Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get
some clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but
to provide valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would
request an update to the wiki as well to help clarify this.

Appreciate your help.


  [1]:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665&lon=151.128885&zoom=18&layers=M
  [2]:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018&lon=151.128327&zoom=18&layers=M
  [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/
  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station
  [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb

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Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[Darren Burt]

This is *exactly* what was referred to in my original email included below.

*The 'official' centroid location is the middle of residential nowhere 
for West Pymble.*


I fear this is the same when you search for Mildura in Victoria per the 
article that I had linked to below.


Regards
Darren
On 20/12/12 21:49, Christopher Barham wrote:
Ref West Pymble location, it's fairly simple to check for the 
'official' centroid location of the suburb here:
http://www.ga.gov.au/place-names/PlaceDetails.jsp?fctext=RESV&fctext=SUB&submit1=NSW73064 



They have it at -33.7568, 151.129

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:29:47 +1100, Darren Burt wrote:

I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of
the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West
Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located
[here][2].

  [1]:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665&lon=151.128885&zoom=18&layers=M 


  [2]:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018&lon=151.128327&zoom=18&layers=M 






Hi

I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. 
Hope you can help me help OSM.

---
Hi

I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the 
[suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. 
I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I 
note the following with respect to Sydney:


a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, 
where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a 
population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg 
Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most 
places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'.


b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to 
town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall 
station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I 
would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns.


These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally 
expanded organically from a central point.


c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, 
they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most 
cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might 
be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the 
West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. 
And here's where things extrapolate.


**IMPORTANT**
Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. 
My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a 
matter of inconvenience.


I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I 
said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of 
the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of 
that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, 
and be life or death.


I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers 
to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be 
the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need 
clarification.


Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some 
clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide 
valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update 
to the wiki as well to help clarify this.


Appreciate your help.


  [1]: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665&lon=151.128885&zoom=18&layers=M 

  [2]: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018&lon=151.128327&zoom=18&layers=M 


  [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/
  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station
  [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb

-

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Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

Suburb can mean an area bounded by a gazetted boundary. There is a sense in
which town is similar to suburb, in the sense of how the boundary is
defined. I am pretty sure the UK is different in this regard.

I don't know if West Pymble is a gazetted suburb (I think yes), but it
would then have a boundary. The name you see is likely a node, possibly
placed within the gazetted boundary for West Pymble, or possibly not.

See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense.

  - Ben.
On 20/12/2012 9:35 PM, "Darren Burt"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope
> you can help me help OSM.
> ---
> Hi
>
> I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the
> [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I
> would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I note
> the following with respect to Sydney:
>
> a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where
> I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a
> population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg
> Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most
> places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'.
>
> b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town'
> in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station.
> This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have
> referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns.
>
> These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally
> expanded organically from a central point.
>
> c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they
> would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases
> that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train
> station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble
> located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's
> where things extrapolate.
>
> **IMPORTANT**
> Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My
> West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter
> of inconvenience.
>
> I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I
> said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of
> the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of
> that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help,
> and be life or death.
>
> I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers
> to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be the
> geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification.
>
> Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some
> clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide
> valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update to
> the wiki as well to help clarify this.
>
> Appreciate your help.
>
>
>   [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=-33.756665&lon=151.128885&**
> zoom=18&layers=M
>   [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=-33.761018&lon=151.128327&**
> zoom=18&layers=M
>   [3]: 
> http://www.geekosystem.com/**apple-maps-australia/
>   [4]: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Anna_Creek_station
>   [5]: 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/Suburb
>
> -
>
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>
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[talk-au] Suburbs in Australia

[Darren Burt]

Hi

I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. 
Hope you can help me help OSM.

---
Hi

I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the 
[suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. 
I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I 
note the following with respect to Sydney:


a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, 
where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a 
population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg 
Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most 
places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'.


b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to 
town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall 
station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I 
would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns.


These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally 
expanded organically from a central point.


c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, 
they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most 
cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might 
be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the 
West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. 
And here's where things extrapolate.


**IMPORTANT**
Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. 
My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a 
matter of inconvenience.


I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I 
said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of 
the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of 
that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, 
and be life or death.


I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers 
to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be 
the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification.


Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some 
clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide 
valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update 
to the wiki as well to help clarify this.


Appreciate your help.


  [1]: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665&lon=151.128885&zoom=18&layers=M
  [2]: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018&lon=151.128327&zoom=18&layers=M

  [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/
  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station
  [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb

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