Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Ross]

On 16/04/15 15:51, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 16 April 2015 at 15:26, Paul Norman > wrote:


On 4/15/2015 6:01 AM, Ross wrote:

Hi Simon,

The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and
conditions require permission to add data not owned by the
contributor.

This is incorrect. An appropriate license is sufficient. Some
obviously appropriate licenses are CC0, PDDL, ODC-BY and the ODbL
itself.

The issue is that CC BY (and BY-SA) 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 require a
form of attribution that is not practical for most map uses, so we
need permission. This would have been true even without the
license change, as we were never meeting the requirements of those
versions of CC BY.



So where is the link that clarifies this on the wiki or where ever?



We have permission for many Australian sources, and I believe for
all CC BY Australian sources that were in use at the time of the
license change.


Thanks for clarifying this Paul. Does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue?

What specific permission do we need? Do we essentially need the data 
supplier to agree to CC0 plus attribution in some specific form. Is 
there a sample legal agreement or text for this?



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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Harvey]

On 16 April 2015 at 15:26, Paul Norman  wrote:

> On 4/15/2015 6:01 AM, Ross wrote:
>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions
>> require permission to add data not owned by the contributor.
>>
> This is incorrect. An appropriate license is sufficient. Some obviously
> appropriate licenses are CC0, PDDL, ODC-BY and the ODbL itself.
>
> The issue is that CC BY (and BY-SA) 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 require a form of
> attribution that is not practical for most map uses, so we need permission.
> This would have been true even without the license change, as we were never
> meeting the requirements of those versions of CC BY.
>
> We have permission for many Australian sources, and I believe for all CC
> BY Australian sources that were in use at the time of the license change.
>

Thanks for clarifying this Paul. Does CC-BY 4.0 have the same issue?

What specific permission do we need? Do we essentially need the data
supplier to agree to CC0 plus attribution in some specific form. Is there a
sample legal agreement or text for this?
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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Paul Norman]

On 4/15/2015 6:01 AM, Ross wrote:

Hi Simon,

The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions 
require permission to add data not owned by the contributor. 
This is incorrect. An appropriate license is sufficient. Some obviously 
appropriate licenses are CC0, PDDL, ODC-BY and the ODbL itself.


The issue is that CC BY (and BY-SA) 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 require a form of 
attribution that is not practical for most map uses, so we need 
permission. This would have been true even without the license change, 
as we were never meeting the requirements of those versions of CC BY.


We have permission for many Australian sources, and I believe for all CC 
BY Australian sources that were in use at the time of the license change.


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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Ross]

On 15/04/15 23:14, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 15 April 2015 at 23:01, Ross > wrote:


The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and
conditions require permission to add data not owned by the
contributor.


Is there a source for this statement?


Go back to all the discussions in the 12 months prior to the licence 
change.  This was one of the major sticking points for a number of 
contributors.




I was under the assumption that in order to contribute data (whether 
your own or someone else's) into OSM, the data must comply with the 
contributor terms. Although the CTs agree to always give attribution, 
this (probably) still isn't compatible with the attribution required 
by CC-BY and the "provide a link to the license and indicate if 
changes were made" clauses of CC-BY. So my thinking is for data to be 
added to OSM under the current CTs it needs to waive these 
requirements of CC-BY and settle for attribution only (and perhaps a 
specific form of attribution).


As you point out though this data is upto 8 years old and in many
cases there is probably better or more current data available eg
Tasmanian Estate Reserve.


CAPAD is seems pretty good, 
http://www.environment.gov.au/fed/catalog/search/resource/details.page?uuid=%7B4448CACD-9DA8-43D1-A48F-48149FD5FCFD%7D




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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Andrew Harvey]

On 15 April 2015 at 23:01, Ross  wrote:

> The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions
> require permission to add data not owned by the contributor.
>

Is there a source for this statement?

I was under the assumption that in order to contribute data (whether your
own or someone else's) into OSM, the data must comply with the contributor
terms. Although the CTs agree to always give attribution, this (probably)
still isn't compatible with the attribution required by CC-BY and the
"provide a link to the license and indicate if changes were made" clauses
of CC-BY. So my thinking is for data to be added to OSM under the current
CTs it needs to waive these requirements of CC-BY and settle for
attribution only (and perhaps a specific form of attribution).


> As you point out though this data is upto 8 years old and in many cases
> there is probably better or more current data available eg Tasmanian Estate
> Reserve.
>

CAPAD is seems pretty good,
http://www.environment.gov.au/fed/catalog/search/resource/details.page?uuid=%7B4448CACD-9DA8-43D1-A48F-48149FD5FCFD%7D
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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Ross]

Hi Simon,

The issue is not with the licence.  The current terms and conditions 
require permission to add data not owned by the contributor.


As you point out though this data is upto 8 years old and in many cases 
there is probably better or more current data available eg Tasmanian 
Estate Reserve.



Cheers
Ross

On 15/04/15 21:39, simon.coste...@ga.gov.au wrote:

The data in Mapconnect can be up to 8 years old.  It originally came from both 
CAPAD and the states/territories, and was generalised to be consistent with a 
cartographic map at a scale of 1:250,000.
CAPAD has come from the states / territories, and probably from the national 
park authorities rather than the mapping agency.  There will be differences.
I would also be keen to hear what the limitations in the CCBY licence is.  If 
you want to use the data in Mapconnect then I can chase up an alternative 
licence/permission to use if the current license doesn't work.

Thanks,
Simon

Simon Costello
Branch Head, National Location Information  |  EGD Management
Environmental Geoscience Division  |  GEOSCIENCE AUSTRALIA

Phone:  +61 2 6249 9716Fax:  +61 2 6249 

Email:  simon.coste...@ga.gov.auWeb:  
www.ga.gov.au
Cnr Jerrabomberra Avenue and Hindmarsh Drive Symonston ACT
GPO Box 378 Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
Applying geoscience to Australia's most important challenges



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   2. Re: Use of mapconnect data in OSM (Ross)
   3. Use of mapconnect data in OSM (Ross) (Warren)



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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Simon . Costello]

The data in Mapconnect can be up to 8 years old.  It originally came from both 
CAPAD and the states/territories, and was generalised to be consistent with a 
cartographic map at a scale of 1:250,000.
CAPAD has come from the states / territories, and probably from the national 
park authorities rather than the mapping agency.  There will be differences.
I would also be keen to hear what the limitations in the CCBY licence is.  If 
you want to use the data in Mapconnect then I can chase up an alternative 
licence/permission to use if the current license doesn't work.

Thanks,
Simon

Simon Costello
Branch Head, National Location Information  |  EGD Management
Environmental Geoscience Division  |  GEOSCIENCE AUSTRALIA

Phone:  +61 2 6249 9716Fax:  +61 2 6249 

Email:  simon.coste...@ga.gov.auWeb:  
www.ga.gov.au
Cnr Jerrabomberra Avenue and Hindmarsh Drive Symonston ACT
GPO Box 378 Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
Applying geoscience to Australia's most important challenges



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[talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM (Ross)

[Warren]

Thanks Ross
It seems to me that the human readable licence details imply permission 
but I will not reopen that argument.


From what you say it can be done provided we get someone from 
Geosciences Australia to specifically state that it is OK.  Now we have 
to find the person that is willing to sign away.  This may be the tricky 
bit.


The Mapconnect data is incomplete and not that wonderful but it is 
better than what is in OSM at the moment, at least for WA.  How much 
effort do I put into this task?


Any other comments will be welcomed.
Warren


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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 10:40:28 +1000
From: Ross 
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM
Message-ID: <5521d5fc.3030...@4x4falcon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

With the current terms and conditions you need to have permission of the
work owner to add it to the database.

Something that is licenced CC-BY-SA does not imply permission.

There have been numerous debates on this pre and post licence change in 2012

See here for an example of what has been done previously:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tasmania_Parks_Import

Cheers
Ross



On 05/04/15 19:38, Warren wrote:

Can someone in the know talk with me about mapconnect?
http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/MapConnect/index.jsp

The licensing statement at
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/legalcode
and the human readable version seem to me to indicate that its use is
OK provided you give appropriate credit and show a link to the license.

I was looking for a way to import National Park Boundaries into OSM.
The data is there but, lets face it the licensing issues are so
complex that I do not know if we are allowed.

I have put a boundary around John Forrest National Park, just east of
Midland WA, ex an shp file from mapconnect.  Easily revertible.

I would appreciate a response to the licensing issue and if the
boundary definition is OK.

Thanks
Warren




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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM

[Ross]

I did not say that you can't import it, just that you need permission 
from the data owner to do so and you need to advise them that it's going 
into a different licence.


Cheers
Ross


On 6 April 2015 at 10:40, Ross  wrote:

With the current terms and conditions you need to have permission of the
work owner to add it to the database.

Something that is licenced CC-BY-SA does not imply permission.

There have been numerous debates on this pre and post licence change in 2012

Is there a reference for this? That CC-BY data (not CC-BY-SA) cannot
be imported into OSM under the current CT+license?

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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

On 5 April 2015 at 19:38, Warren  wrote:
> I was looking for a way to import National Park Boundaries into OSM.  The
> data is there but, lets face it the licensing issues are so complex that I
> do not know if we are allowed.

Indeed. I've been using the CAPAD database [1] for these boundaries
and a script [2] to convert these into the .osm format. The point is
that it can then be loaded as normal OSM data, but into a separate
database, allowing map renderings to be created using both OSM data
plus this augmented data. You might want to compare the CAPAD National
Park data with that from the MapConnect 250K Topographic Data, one
might be more accurate or more up to date than the other. I'm not
sure.

[1] 
http://www.environment.gov.au/fed/catalog/search/resource/details.page?uuid={4448CACD-9DA8-43D1-A48F-48149FD5FCFD}
[2] https://github.com/andrewharvey/capad2osm

On 6 April 2015 at 10:40, Ross  wrote:
> With the current terms and conditions you need to have permission of the
> work owner to add it to the database.
>
> Something that is licenced CC-BY-SA does not imply permission.
>
> There have been numerous debates on this pre and post licence change in 2012

Is there a reference for this? That CC-BY data (not CC-BY-SA) cannot
be imported into OSM under the current CT+license?

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Re: [talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM

[Ross]

With the current terms and conditions you need to have permission of the 
work owner to add it to the database.


Something that is licenced CC-BY-SA does not imply permission.

There have been numerous debates on this pre and post licence change in 2012

See here for an example of what has been done previously:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tasmania_Parks_Import

Cheers
Ross



On 05/04/15 19:38, Warren wrote:

Can someone in the know talk with me about mapconnect?
http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/MapConnect/index.jsp

The licensing statement at 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/legalcode
and the human readable version seem to me to indicate that its use is 
OK provided you give appropriate credit and show a link to the license.


I was looking for a way to import National Park Boundaries into OSM.  
The data is there but, lets face it the licensing issues are so 
complex that I do not know if we are allowed.


I have put a boundary around John Forrest National Park, just east of 
Midland WA, ex an shp file from mapconnect.  Easily revertible.


I would appreciate a response to the licensing issue and if the 
boundary definition is OK.


Thanks
Warren




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[talk-au] Use of mapconnect data in OSM

[Warren]

Can someone in the know talk with me about mapconnect?
http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/MapConnect/index.jsp

The licensing statement at 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/legalcode
and the human readable version seem to me to indicate that its use is OK 
provided you give appropriate credit and show a link to the license.


I was looking for a way to import National Park Boundaries into OSM.  
The data is there but, lets face it the licensing issues are so complex 
that I do not know if we are allowed.


I have put a boundary around John Forrest National Park, just east of 
Midland WA, ex an shp file from mapconnect.  Easily revertible.


I would appreciate a response to the licensing issue and if the boundary 
definition is OK.


Thanks
Warren




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