Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh

[Aftabuzzaman Ullah]

Hello. Thanks for mail.
I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all
arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.

We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla correctly
isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority of
rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla but
it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't
support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer for
adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that in
order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.
They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to
take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't
render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix HOT
rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here
https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts . i can see they
already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to help
with this & others.

It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see
it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১"
& "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local
language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.

Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary
"name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for
English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general
guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats
fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing
guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary
"name" tag in Bangla.
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[Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh

[Fazle Rabbi]

Greetings, everyone,

I am Fazle Rabbi from OpenStreetMap Bangladesh Foundation (OSMBDF), the
representative of OpenStreetMap Bangladesh community. I'm also a member of
the core team of the community, commonly known as "BHOOT" to the global OSM
community.

For some time, there has been a lot of discussion and debates on how – or
rather, if – we should localize names for Bangladesh (Bengali). Recently,
we have seen a lot of changes from a few contributors who changed the
`name` tag from English (Roman) to Bengali. We agree with the policy that
names should be localized, but which tag we should use is up for
discussion. We, the community of Bangladesh, have been following a style
for more than 4 years now to map Bangladesh with English (Roman) for `name`
tag and Bengali for `name:bn` tag.

The community have come to this conclusion after many trials and errors and
thoughtful consideration that `name` tag should be had the name in English
(Roman). But we made a mistake. We did all the discussion internally as all
the initial contributors used to sit together in a small room. What we
should have done is discuss it in a more appropriate manner where anyone –
past, present, future contributors – would be able to raise their voices.
We would like to apologize for our mistake and take steps to fix that
problem by starting a discussion here to make a string tagging guideline
for Bangladesh.

The OSM community in Bangladesh is one of the strongest communities in the
world, and community members have gathered under the wing of OSMBDF, the
legally registered entity in Bangladesh, and waiting for the local chapter
recognition from OSMF. The members of our community are mainly connected
via a Facebook group. Though this mailing list was set up at a very initial
stage, it was not very active. Recently, on the State of the Map Asia 2019
held in Bangladesh, we decided to make the mailing list more active and the
core communication channel. We would like all of our community members to
engage in the mailing for this kind of discussions rather than using the
Facebook group.

The OSM community and, as a part of that larger community, we, the members
of OSM Bangladesh community, strongly believe that the main site at
openstreetmap.org is a geo-spatial data repository which is used by many
other apps, websites and service providers, but not as a map. I would like
to draw your attention to two sentences in the [About Page of
OpenStreetMap](https://www.openstreetmap.org/about):

- "OpenStreetMap powers map data on thousands of websites, mobile apps, and
hardware devices"
- "OpenStreetMap is built by a community of mappers that contribute and
maintain data about roads, trails, cafés, railway stations, and much more,
all over the world."

It is a data repository, not a map. The reasons we have agreed upon using
English name in `name` tag are:

- The rendering problem with Bengali makes a horrible UX experience. The
rendering style used by OSM main site is openstreetmap-carto that had a
problem with rendering Bengali. The problem is fixed recently which is a
great news. While it is convenient to use from a desktop or laptop at home,
unfortunately, it is impossible to use on the go. Most of the people use
mobile apps to navigate on the road, but the large array of the most-used
mobile applications like OsmAnd, Maps.Me, Magic Earth that still can't
render the Bengali characters make it unable to use for the users. The
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT) made a map for disaster response that
is available in OSM main site as an additional layer, which also can't
render Bengali. And that makes it a challenge in times of disaster
response. Screenshot for reference:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zj9rwFsG76H3ZPReA

- Aid agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent have run many projects to map
large portions of the country and given those data to OSM, which makes them
big contributors and users of the OSM data. But this data becomes useless
if all `name` tags are replaced with Bengali. As per, it came to us, WFP
recently faced the issue while they tried out using the dataset in one of
their projects.

OSM is an open community where everything gets done by discussing, and we
have tried to follow that convention. When we noticed the `name` tag
problem, we requested the editor to change it by putting the Bengali value
in `name:bn` tag. We are very disheartened to see when they changed OSM
Wiki to justify theirs without community consent or even discussion, which
is not appreciated in an open community. Moreover, the English names were
deleted altogether, which is problematic, because there is no fall-back
policy for applications that can render `name:en` tags.


When we asked them about the rendering problem of the `name` tag in the
changeset comments, they replied that it is not their concern and the
developer of those apps should be asked to fix it. A very valid point! But
a large number of users are foreign people, so we can't just ask them to
learn 

Re: [Talk-bd] Thank you and congratulations OSM Bangladesh!

[Erwin Olario]

Our fellow advocate in the Philippines,  Eugene Villar, recently expressed
his interest in running for the board. I'm adding him in this email
exchange.

I think it would be great to put our "block" (are we actually that?)
support  for a common candidate, to improve the chances of having somebody
as the Asian voice in the board.

Erwin

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 14:43 Nama Budhathoki  wrote:

> I just returned back to Nepal after attending it in Dhaka. Organizing
> conference takes more time and energy than many people think. OSM
> Bangladesh community did a good job. Many many thanks Ahasanul bhai, Tasauf
> Bhai and other members from OSM Bangladesh community for hosting us. It was
> good to meet you, Taichi. We missed you, Sajjad, Erwin, Maning, Jnal and
> many other friends. I take conferences as great opportunities to meet old
> friends in-person, renew our friendship and share our ideas.
>
> I must tell that I have a different level of affection with Bangladesh. I
> spent five years in Dhaka while doing my undergraduate. Getting back to
> Dhaka, especially to the university where I studied, made me bit nostalgic.
>
> Hope to see you in Sri Lanka in July.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nama
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:24 PM Tasauf A Baki Billah 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Sajjad. It would have been great if you all could join.
>> Already we have pushed a feedback form to the participants to get a
>> broader idea on their feedback & suggestions.
>> We will also prepare a documentation on our learning that might become
>> handy for the Lankan team.
>>
>> Thank you again for your constant support. Without it might not have been
>> possible for us to overcome the challenges.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Tasauf
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:10 PM Sajjad Anwar  wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Tasauf, Ahasan and the entire SOTM 2019 Team -
>>>
>>> I wanted to congratulate all of you for organizing SOTM Asia 2019.
>>> Even though I wasn't able to make it, I saw the tweets and posts of
>>> Facebook. It seemed like a well attended event with lots of
>>> excitement.
>>>
>>> Thank you so much for hosting the OSM community this year. It would
>>> not have been possible without your hard work.
>>>
>>> As you close this year, it'll be great to read any specific feedback
>>> on organising SOTM that may be helpful for the team in Sri Lanka.
>>> Looking forward.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sajjad
>>>
>>
>
> --
> 
> Nama R. Budhathoki, Ph.D.
> Founder and Executive Director, Kathmandu Living Labs 
> *(www.kathmandulivinglabs.org
> )*
> Office: 977-6205000
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-bd] Thank you and congratulations OSM Bangladesh!

[Jinal Foflia]

Hello Tasauf and team,

It was bummer for not making it to this year's SotM but was following the
event online. Great team effort and kudos to the team for making this
happen. Good luck to the Sri Lanka team for 2020. So looking forward to it.

Cheers,
Jinal Foflia



On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 2:45 PM Erwin Olario  wrote:

> Seems like I missed a lot! Sorry for missing the conference. I'm still on
> the road.
>
> Kudos to the Bangladesh organizing team for pulling it through. Looking
> forward to learning and hearing more about your collective experience.
> Traditionally, these are shared to past organizers.
>
> Good luck to Team Sri Lanka for SotmAsia2020!
>
> @Tasauf, when you have the data ready, kindly update the osm Wiki page for
> SotM Asia for 2019 stats:
> https://openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_of_the_Map_Asia
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 14:43 Nama Budhathoki 
> wrote:
>
>> I just returned back to Nepal after attending it in Dhaka. Organizing
>> conference takes more time and energy than many people think. OSM
>> Bangladesh community did a good job. Many many thanks Ahasanul bhai, Tasauf
>> Bhai and other members from OSM Bangladesh community for hosting us. It was
>> good to meet you, Taichi. We missed you, Sajjad, Erwin, Maning, Jnal and
>> many other friends. I take conferences as great opportunities to meet old
>> friends in-person, renew our friendship and share our ideas.
>>
>> I must tell that I have a different level of affection with Bangladesh. I
>> spent five years in Dhaka while doing my undergraduate. Getting back to
>> Dhaka, especially to the university where I studied, made me bit nostalgic.
>>
>> Hope to see you in Sri Lanka in July.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Nama
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:24 PM Tasauf A Baki Billah 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Sajjad. It would have been great if you all could join.
>>> Already we have pushed a feedback form to the participants to get a
>>> broader idea on their feedback & suggestions.
>>> We will also prepare a documentation on our learning that might become
>>> handy for the Lankan team.
>>>
>>> Thank you again for your constant support. Without it might not have
>>> been possible for us to overcome the challenges.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Tasauf
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:10 PM Sajjad Anwar  wrote:
>>>
 Dear Tasauf, Ahasan and the entire SOTM 2019 Team -

 I wanted to congratulate all of you for organizing SOTM Asia 2019.
 Even though I wasn't able to make it, I saw the tweets and posts of
 Facebook. It seemed like a well attended event with lots of
 excitement.

 Thank you so much for hosting the OSM community this year. It would
 not have been possible without your hard work.

 As you close this year, it'll be great to read any specific feedback
 on organising SOTM that may be helpful for the team in Sri Lanka.
 Looking forward.

 Cheers,
 Sajjad

>>>
>>
>> --
>> 
>> Nama R. Budhathoki, Ph.D.
>> Founder and Executive Director, Kathmandu Living Labs 
>> *(www.kathmandulivinglabs.org
>> )*
>> Office: 977-6205000
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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