[OSM-talk-be] About SNCB/NMBS and Infrabel
Newby on OSM, I see that a lot of good work is completed about the railway network, but it seems that the relevant tags are not always consistent. Should a way/relation relative to a railway line be described as a «line» of the SNCB/NMBS (with the focus on the service, the operator, the destinations, and so) or a physical infrastructure of Infrabel (with the focus on the technical characteristics) ? Now, there are «lines» focused on the first choice: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/271000 Relation: Bruxelles - Namur - Liège - Liers Tags: name = Bruxelles - Namur - Liège - Liers network = IC operator = NMBS/SNCB ref = IC M and others focused on the 2d: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/107939 (A little line between Gembloux and Jemeppes) Tags: operator = infrabel ref = 144 No node as stop, even though there are some, like Mazy: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/369736818 not tagged as part of the line. I've tried to download this URL: http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/relation[network=IC|CR][bbox=2.54,49.49,6.41,51.55] expecting to get all the lines and stops of Belgium, but that failed. I think that an osm-client, an application, should be able to make a request returning all the railway lines of Belgium, or all the train-relations of the SNCB/NMBS, and that's not identical. In the 1rst relation, there are unused railways, in the 2d, there are some lines redundant with others (international lines, f.i.). A finest request could return the IC, IR or L lines if the tags are accurate. So what do you think ? In the case of the line 144, must a new relation be introduced with references to the same ways, but with other tags ? I'm not a specialist of railway-centric obsessions, and not the best person to initiate this debate, but I think it's important if we hope OSM gives coherent information, not only nice maps. By the way, have some mappers had contact with Infrabel or SNCB/NMBS ? Are they kindly or unwilling about the use of their data ? Regards, Gauthier ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] About SNCB/NMBS and InfrabelnAN
gvdmo...@skynet.be wrote: > Should a way/relation relative to a railway line be described as a > �line� of the SNCB/NMBS (with the focus on the service, the operator, > the destinations, and so) or a physical infrastructure of Infrabel (with > the focus on the technical characteristics) ? > > Now, there are �lines� focused on the first choice: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/271000 > Relation: Bruxelles - Namur - Li�ge - Liers > Tags: name = Bruxelles - Namur - Li�ge - Liers > network = IC > operator = NMBS/SNCB > ref = IC M > > and others focused on the 2d: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/107939 > > (A little line between Gembloux and Jemeppes) > Tags: operator = infrabel > ref = 144 Both have their use, and most railways would have a relation of the second kind with the reference number of that rail. And then one or more (or maybe no) relations of the first kind with the trains that drive on them. You've missed two important tags though: "type" and "route". The railway reference numbers will have "type=route" + "route=rail", while the train service itself will have a "type=route" + "route=train" Although I have my questions on whether we should really use the "IC M" or "IR a" type of train numbers. Most people traveling trains would be more familiar with the four number code of each train, as that's the number appearing on the screens at stations. That would also solve the problem that (say) IC B doesn't take the same route during the entire day, or doesn't stop at the same stations. Whereas the four number code will identify only one train each day which -- in the optimal situation, but surely not in real life -- should follow exactly the same path each day (not taking the occasional situation into account where it's decided only at the moment itself over which rails they'll send a train). > No node as stop, even though there are some, like Mazy: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/369736818 > > not tagged as part of the line. > > I've tried to download this URL: > > http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.6/relation[network=IC|CR][bb > ox=2.54,49.49,6.41,51.55] > > expecting to get all the lines and stops of Belgium, but that failed. probably takes way too long to process. But there's always http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Railways although nothing says that that list is correct and complete. > I think that an osm-client, an application, should be able to make a > request returning all the railway lines of Belgium, or all the > train-relations of the SNCB/NMBS, and that's not identical. > > In the 1rst relation, there are unused railways, Actually, all railways should have a ref number, except the rails in yards and sidetracks at stations or other places (and maybe other exceptions. I don't think military railways have numbers for example, and neither do private railways. And the port of Antwerp is full of railways without numbers). So if you've seen railways without the route=rail relation, then probably no-one mapped it yet. > in the 2d, there are > some lines redundant with others (international lines, f.i.). What do you mean with "redundant"? > A finest > request could return the IC, IR or L lines if the tags are accurate. > > So what do you think ? In the case of the line 144, must a new relation > be introduced with references to the same ways, but with other tags ? Sure, an extra relation for each passenger train going over them. (btw, freight trains also travel according to time tables with similar train numbers like passenger trains so one could in principle add relations for those as well, but without information from someone working in NMBS/SNCB it's impossible to get to that information) > By the way, have some mappers had contact with Infrabel or SNCB/NMBS ? > Are they kindly or unwilling about the use of their data ? Yeah, someone received a set of gps tracks from them which would've certainly helped with some of the more exotic railways. But he just vanished after that and no-one has seen the data set. Information is still on the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Railways#Potential_datasets and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Orwall Greetings Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] Mapping and tagging of railways.
Further to Gauthier's message relating to Belgian Railways: it seems obvious to me that LINE NUMBERS should be published, not train indicators. Compare to bars/cafés: we should mention the NAME of the place, not what beers are on tap or what food they serve. After all, services offered on a railroad may change with time. And on one line, sveral services may be offered (line 25/27 is used by NMBS/SNCB but also by Thalys, for just one example. Another is ICE on L36). Also, where does it stop? Must we then mention the indications of cargo trains also? Of course not. We are working on a map, or better on an atlas, not on an index of services. Such an index could be a nice side-project, but for me the main job comes first. And indeed there is some work left to be done about the Belgian railroad infrastructure. I once suggested obtaining the geographical data from NMBS themselves (they have it, for their ATLAS project, and I still have some relations there) but there was no enthusiasm so I didn't pursue the idea. My 0.02 € ... ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Mapping and tagging of railways.
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:47:31 +, Karel Adams wrote: > Further to Gauthier's message relating to Belgian Railways: it seems > obvious to me that LINE NUMBERS should be published, not train > indicators. Compare to bars/cafés: we should mention the NAME of the > place, not what beers are on tap or what food they serve. In Germany they are also making relations for trainseries (like IC-A, IC-B, IR-a). Have a look at the Ruhrgebiet. I am neutral on that point. > And indeed there is some work left to be done about the Belgian railroad > infrastructure. I once suggested obtaining the geographical data from > NMBS themselves (they have it, for their ATLAS project, and I still have > some relations there) but there was no enthusiasm so I didn't pursue the > idea. Well, you've got my enthusiasm. I understood that there also was a file with GPS tracks available, but requests for that have always ended in no response. I know there are a few lines still unmapped (and are hard to map by hand, as for instance MW41 allows no GPS reception inside). It would be wonderful to have GPS tracks from NMBS for these lines. Regards, Maarten ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] Alternate bus routes
Hello everyone,
I'm new to this list but I've been doing some mapping in Brussels for
a few months.
Recently, I have been tracking bus stops in my area and found an
interesting case: the bus line 41 from the STIB/MIVB.
Its route happens to be different on weekdays and during the weekend,
due to the closing of the Bois de la Cambre for all vehicle traffic.
On the digital screens outside and inside the bus is written "41 dévié
fermeture bois / 41 omgeleid sluiting bos". There are hard stops (with
shelters and all) on both routes.
So... how should I tag this alternate route and its stops?
a) Make a new relation for the weekend route, tagged with a made-up
line number ("41d" or something) ?
b) Make a new relation only for the part of the route which differs
during the weekend, tagged the same way?
c) Add both routes to the existing relation?
I think b) would render the best on ÖPVN-Karte, but is maybe not so
useful for other tools (a trip planner for example). a) would be more
interesting for other tools but look odd on the map. And c) would be
plain confusing for everyone.
What do you think?
--
Benoit
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