Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[André Pirard]

Hi,

Regarding this, I have updated my Mapproxy distribution
 for even greater simplicity.


On 2013-11-19 22:15, � wrote :
>
> Le 15/11/13 22:03, André Pirard a écrit :
>> On 2013-11-13 20:35, jul...@fastre.info wrote :
>>>
>>> As far as I understand, the main usage of tiles projeted in
>>> Lambert72 or Lambert 2008 is to be mixed with data from AGIV or
>>> Walloon Regio, which doesn't support 900913 (nor 3857) in their WMS
>>> services. We are developping an app today and this is a problem to
>>> mix information from Walloon Regio and OSM because the need of
>>> projectio.
>>>
>>> QGIS user doesn't need this, but they are advanced user. We target
>>> people who are not GIS user there.
>>>
>>> Right ?
>>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> How was Arlon, Julien?
>>
>> What I understood is that AGIV uses applications that can get data
>> only from EPSG:31370 WMS and hence not from OSM. And so that they
>> need TMS 4326 -> WMS 31370 conversion.
>>
>> After reading Ben's message, I added 14 characters to my local
>> Mapproxy configuration (4 if I copy & paste from Ben) and I had on my
>> PC exactly what AGIV need, tested later with JOSM.
>> And so, I recommended Mapproxy once again.
>> BTW, there are a good 20 references to Mapproxy on
>> wiki.openstreetmap.org and I just discovered
>> among them a page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapProxy
>> dedicated to Mapproxy which contains the installation procedure,
>> including the configuration that Ben needs.
>> Just in case somebody would read what I wrote, I added a DEB remark
>> for Ubuntu/Debian install.
>>
>> Anyway, I decided to stop speaking of Mapproxy repeatedly and to
>> write a Web page instead.
>> I hope to finish it tonight and it will contain a super simple
>> procedure with a guaranteed-to-work simple configuration for OSM (I
>> have doubts about the config in the OSM wiki page).
>>
>> I'll let you know, of course.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> André.
>>
>>
>>
> Hi,
>
> The "board" of Champs Libres (my society founded one month ago) had a
> meeting this afternoon and we decided that it was very important to
> give help to osm-be. So, we agree with setting up a server for tiles
> or WMS if you think this may be useful.
>
> As a I understand, the use case is "to be able to mix WMS layer from
> AGIV / Région Wallonne with openstreetmap". 
As I understand it, "WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370" means "reprojecting
OSM's TMS 4326 to WMS 31370" for handicapped applications that can only
use 31370.  Hey there, tell me if I'm right or wrong !!!
> This is not possible until :
>
> 1. AGIV / RW serve WMS layers with projection EPSG:3857 or 900913 ;
EPSG:4326 is the most important to serve (read AGIV below).

AFAIKS, the only SPW servers providing WMS are cartopro1 (ortho) and
cartopro2 (base map) in 31370.
I have explained that they should serve 4326 too (at least).
The other (new) servers do not use WMS but ArcGIS REST and 31370.
I have explained that they should serve WMS 4326 as well (at least).

I seem to have been misunderstood.
They seem to have removed cartopro2 instead.
So, except for BING like orthos, we have *NO WMS* and *NO 4326* at the SPW.

And what would be great is if you could reproject all their ArcGIS
layers to WMS 4326 at least.

AFAIKS, AGIV serves WMS:
CRS:84, EPSG:4326, EPSG:4258, EPSG:31370, EPSG:3812, EPSG:3043,
EPSG:32631 and EPSG:25831.
Generally, all non handicapped applications can use 4326 and I see that
JOSM, which is not supposed to reproject, can make 4326 requests when
its screen is configured as Mercator 3857.
That's because the sole difference is the simple vertical transformation
y = R ln tan (PI/4 + phi/2).
But, if needed, AGIV might agree to add EPSG:3857 and 900913 more easily
than SPW.
> 2. We have tiles in those projections ;
>
> So, we may reproject WMSs into 900913/3857 (1) or serve tiles (2).
Why tiles and why in those projections?
I have just explained that Mapproxy
 and others can transform
any TMS or WMS server in any projection to TMS or WMS in any projection.
Except that if a cache is used, TMS can only be served in the projection
of the cache.

Cheers,

André.


> For 1, this will force us to "capture" every WMS and serve it again. I
> am afraid that we might have a delay before inserting WMS. I wonder
> also about the legality of such use (I may ask RW for authorization).
>
> For 2, we know how OSM goes, and an advantage I see is that we might
> have other styles later, if we need it.
>
> What are other advantages of every answer to those question ?
>
> Julien
>
> NB: our server's provider have some problems those days... We will
> have to wait their new products to be available. This should be done
> within end of this year.
>
> @André & others :
>
> Arlon was great. I spoke about OSM as a community project, how we
> works, what we do, what are the value of the community, ...
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Julien Fastré]

Le 15/11/13 22:03, André Pirard a écrit :

On 2013-11-13 20:35, jul...@fastre.info wrote :


As far as I understand, the main usage of tiles projeted in Lambert72 
or Lambert 2008 is to be mixed with data from AGIV or Walloon Regio, 
which doesn't support 900913 (nor 3857) in their WMS services. We are 
developping an app today and this is a problem to mix information 
from Walloon Regio and OSM because the need of projectio.


QGIS user doesn't need this, but they are advanced user. We target 
people who are not GIS user there.


Right ?


Hi,

How was Arlon, Julien?

What I understood is that AGIV uses applications that can get data 
only from EPSG:31370 WMS and hence not from OSM. And so that they need 
TMS 4326 -> WMS 31370 conversion.


After reading Ben's message, I added 14 characters to my local 
Mapproxy configuration (4 if I copy & paste from Ben) and I had on my 
PC exactly what AGIV need, tested later with JOSM.

And so, I recommended Mapproxy once again.
BTW, there are a good 20 references to Mapproxy on 
wiki.openstreetmap.org and I just discovered
among them a page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapProxy 
dedicated to Mapproxy which contains the installation procedure, 
including the configuration that Ben needs.
Just in case somebody would read what I wrote, I added a DEB remark 
for Ubuntu/Debian install.


Anyway, I decided to stop speaking of Mapproxy repeatedly and to write 
a Web page instead.
I hope to finish it tonight and it will contain a super simple 
procedure with a guaranteed-to-work simple configuration for OSM (I 
have doubts about the config in the OSM wiki page).


I'll let you know, of course.

Cheers,

André.




Hi,



The "board" of Champs Libres (my society founded one month ago) had a 
meeting this afternoon and we decided that it was very important to give 
help to osm-be. So, we agree with setting up a server for tiles or WMS 
if you think this may be useful.


As a I understand, the use case is "to be able to mix WMS layer from 
AGIV / Région Wallonne with openstreetmap". This is not possible until :


1. AGIV / RW serve WMS layers with projection EPSG:3857 or 900913 ;
2. We have tiles in those projections ;

So, we may reproject WMSs into 900913/3857 (1) or serve tiles (2).

For 1, this will force us to "capture" every WMS and serve it again. I 
am afraid that we might have a delay before inserting WMS. I wonder also 
about the legality of such use (I may ask RW for authorization).


For 2, we know how OSM goes, and an advantage I see is that we might 
have other styles later, if we need it.


What are other advantages of every answer to those question ?

Julien

NB: our server's provider have some problems those days... We will have 
to wait their new products to be available. This should be done within 
end of this year.


@André & others :

Arlon was great. I spoke about OSM as a community project, how we works, 
what we do, what are the value of the community, ...


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[André Pirard]

On 2013-11-13 20:35, jul...@fastre.info wrote :
>
> As far as I understand, the main usage of tiles projeted in Lambert72
> or Lambert 2008 is to be mixed with data from AGIV or Walloon Regio,
> which doesn't support 900913 (nor 3857) in their WMS services. We are
> developping an app today and this is a problem to mix information from
> Walloon Regio and OSM because the need of projectio.
>
> QGIS user doesn't need this, but they are advanced user. We target
> people who are not GIS user there.
>
> Right ?
>
Hi,

How was Arlon, Julien?

What I understood is that AGIV uses applications that can get data only
from EPSG:31370 WMS and hence not from OSM. And so that they need TMS
4326 -> WMS 31370 conversion.

After reading Ben's message, I added 14 characters to my local Mapproxy
configuration (4 if I copy & paste from Ben) and I had on my PC exactly
what AGIV need, tested later with JOSM.
And so, I recommended Mapproxy once again.
BTW, there are a good 20 references to Mapproxy on
wiki.openstreetmap.org and I just discovered
among them a page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapProxy dedicated
to Mapproxy which contains the installation procedure, including the
configuration that Ben needs.
Just in case somebody would read what I wrote, I added a DEB remark for
Ubuntu/Debian install.

Anyway, I decided to stop speaking of Mapproxy repeatedly and to write a
Web page instead.
I hope to finish it tonight and it will contain a super simple procedure
with a guaranteed-to-work simple configuration for OSM (I have doubts
about the config in the OSM wiki page).

I'll let you know, of course.

Cheers,

André.




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Ben Abelshausen]

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 8:35 PM,  wrote:

> QGIS user doesn't need this, but they are advanced user. We target people
> who are not GIS user there.
>
> Right ?
>

Exactly, still working on this at the moment.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[julien]

 

As far as I understand, the main usage of tiles projeted in
Lambert72 or Lambert 2008 is to be mixed with data from AGIV or Walloon
Regio, which doesn't support 900913 (nor 3857) in their WMS services. We
are developping an app today and this is a problem to mix information
from Walloon Regio and OSM because the need of projectio. 

QGIS user
doesn't need this, but they are advanced user. We target people who are
not GIS user there. 

Right ? 

Julien 

Le 2013-11-12 19:14, Ben
Abelshausen a écrit : 

> Hi Kurt,
> 
> Yes there are always better
technical solutions. The idea is to make is easy as possible for data
consumers to use our maps, preferably as easy as other competing
sources.
> 
> Having this already setup supporting the correct
projection(s) would be a good thing not just for QGIS but other
applications are more demanding. In my specific example OpenLayers is
used and it is impossible (or hard) to combine layers with different
projections. 
> No idea why they stay with the old system, probably
because it would require rewriting some things switching now.
> 
>
Regards,
> 
> Ben 
> 
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi Kurt,

Yes there are always better technical solutions. The idea is to make is
easy as possible for data consumers to use our maps, preferably as easy as
other competing sources.

Having this already setup supporting the correct projection(s) would be a
good thing not just for QGIS but other applications are more demanding. In
my specific example OpenLayers is used and it is impossible (or hard) to
combine layers with different projections.

No idea why they stay with the old system, probably because it would
require rewriting some things switching now.

Regards,

Ben
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Kurt Roeckx]

So my first question is going to be why do you think you need WMS
with 31370?  There might be alternative solutions to the problem
you're trying to solve.

For instance qgis can work with layers from many different
sources, including vector and raster files, WMS, and postgis.
Using it with postgis can be very handy as you can just hide the
information you don't want.  Maybe their software doesn't support
postgis, but WMS probably isn't the only solution.  And I find
bitmaps annoying when you start to have several layers and they're
not transparent.

Assuming you do need to use WMS:
- Can they provide the WMS server themself, or is this something
  you need to provide?  There are various WMS servers available
  including about 5 open source WMS servers, including things like
  qgis.
- You probably need to create maps in Lambert 72.  I don't think
  that part should be that hard.


PS: Any idea why they stay with Lambert 72 and don't move to 2008?


On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 12:09:27PM +0100, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Anyone here on the list who has experience setting up a WMS service using
> OpenStreetMap tiles in another projection than the default web mercator?
> 
> I need a WMS that can handle EPSG:31370.
> 
> I could use to this convince some people at AGIV to use OSM as a layer in
> some of their applications. This would mean a big extra audience looking at
> our maps and all doing something with mapping or GIS. (Potential new
> contributors? :-) )
> 
> I have already been looking at this:
> 
> https://github.com/mapnik/OGCServer
> 
> Anyone any experience in this field? Anyone know an existing service?
> Anyone willing to give it a try to set this up? :-)
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben Abelshausen

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Ben Abelshausen]

Oh just regular tiles would be enough for now.

Different features will be even better in the future... would be very nice
if such a service existed for Belgium! :-)
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Julien Fastré]

Ben,

Do you think you need a WMS service with layers of OSM features in 
EPSG:31370 or a tile server with features in EPSG:31370 ?


We might be interested with champs-libres.coop :-) We are going to think 
about that.


Julien

Le 12/11/13 12:09, Ben Abelshausen a écrit :

Hello,
Anyone here on the list who has experience setting up a WMS service 
using OpenStreetMap tiles in another projection than the default web 
mercator?

I need a WMS that can handle EPSG:31370.
I could use to this convince some people at AGIV to use OSM as a layer 
in some of their applications. This would mean a big extra audience 
looking at our maps and all doing something with mapping or GIS. 
(Potential new contributors? :-) )

I have already been looking at this:
https://github.com/mapnik/OGCServer
Anyone any experience in this field? Anyone know an existing service? 
Anyone willing to give it a try to set this up? :-)

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[André Pirard]

On 2013-11-12 12:09, Ben Abelshausen wrote :
> Hello,
>  
> Anyone here on the list who has experience setting up a WMS service
> using OpenStreetMap tiles in another projection than the default web
> mercator?
>  
> I need a WMS that can handle EPSG:31370.
I assume that you mean a program that can serve WMS and reproject
sources to EPSG:31370.
I mentioned several times Python Mapproxy  that I
used locally for exactly the opposite reprojection (using dreaded
Lambert only servers with JOSM). Easy for one who can edit a
configuration file; you'll find examples. Full of options.
It can build an OSM friendly cache, use several sources, use TMS sources
and serve them in WMS etc...
There is another Java Mapproxy configured with a Web interface but I
didn't try it.
But a client not being able to use EPSG:4326 should be mentioned in the
Guinness Book ;-)

Cheers,

André.


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[OSM-talk-be] WMS for OSM using EPSG:31370 (Lambert 72)

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hello,

Anyone here on the list who has experience setting up a WMS service using
OpenStreetMap tiles in another projection than the default web mercator?

I need a WMS that can handle EPSG:31370.

I could use to this convince some people at AGIV to use OSM as a layer in
some of their applications. This would mean a big extra audience looking at
our maps and all doing something with mapping or GIS. (Potential new
contributors? :-) )

I have already been looking at this:

https://github.com/mapnik/OGCServer

Anyone any experience in this field? Anyone know an existing service?
Anyone willing to give it a try to set this up? :-)
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen
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