Re: [Talk-ca] GeoBase import team meeting (?)

[Steve Singer]

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Richard Weait wrote:


> I have been overwhelmed by the enthusiasm and creativity of the talk-ca
> list and the discussion of the GeoBase import project.  I wonder if we
> would find it helpful to have as many of us as possible to meet in
> person, and some others join us by video / teleconference?  I expect it
> will be useful somewhere on the scale from "fairly useful" to
> "incredibly useful" but I am certain that it will be a huge amount of
> fun.
>
> Also, I'll put forward Toronto as a location because I'm selfish.  ;-)

I'd be willing to attend an import team meeting.  Either in person in the 
Toronto area or on a teleconference.  If people do end up meeting in person 
it would be nice if the remote people can be included.


>
> Thoughts?
>
> Best regards,
> Richard

Steve


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[Talk-ca] Scripts to import GeoBase/GeoGratis into OSM

[Richard Degelder]

We are hearing a lot about the scripts that will will be used to import
the data into OSM from GeoBase/GeoGratis but at no point do I recall
anyone pointing to such a script, or a number of scripts, that will be
used to do the work.  And unless I am writing it, or someone else is
willing to write it or provide it, I cannot be sure what is possible or
not.

So we have to look at what is possible.  Is it possible, and how is the
best approach to adding the data from GeoBase/GeoGratis into areas that
already have some OSM data, such as roads, within them?  This question
has to be answered for whatever density of roads already exists, be it a
single road or a massive number for places like Toronto, because the
conflict resolution just has to work.  How did other imports, such as
the TIGER import, deal with data that was already there?  What did they
do to match existing data within OSM when it was imported?  And how did
they add nodes to existing roads when a new road was added from the
import?

To what extent do we want to import data into OSM from
GeoBase/GeoGratis?  A very basic import that we agreed would be useful,
and a good start to test the import, would be geopolitical boundaries.
I am also pretty certain that adding the roads from GeoBase/GeoGratis is
also a pretty high priority, especially where the street names and house
numbers are also included.  If those are the basic initial needs we can
apparently get the most current data from GeoBase so lets concentrate on
using it for now.

Is a script going to be able to determine that a roadway within
GeoBase/GeoGratis is the same street as within OSM or if it is a
different street?  To some degree, and at this point I am only guessing,
we can get a script that will be able to determine that a short straight
street could be the same but what if the street is longer and not so
straight?  And what happens when something has happened, such as it was
lengthened to the or partially relocated, since the data was input into
GeoBase/GeoGratis?  What kind of things are going to appear within OSM
then?  What happens if a street was closed since the data was entered
into GeoBase/GeoGratis?  Are we going to get a new street there again?

At this point we are going to have to either develop a script, or more
likely a set of scripts, to perform the actions we want in order to
import the data into OSM or we are going to have to acquire, with the
legal right to do so, the scripts we need.  That means that if it was
done in the past by someone then we have to have the legal right to use
their scripts, and that means a license even if it is something like the
GPL, and to modify it as needed or write our own.

To some extent our wishlist, get everything we can for OSM, has to be
tempered with what is realistically possible, we can decide to take a
longer term approach to adding things that are going to be more
difficult so we can develop our expertise in importing those features
later.  And what is realistically possible is going to be determined by
the scripts that we develop or acquire to import the data and to the
extent they must massage the data to conform to OSM.  Other projects had
the benefit of a clean slate to start with and so they did not have to
import data into areas that already contain data.  So how did large
imports of data, like the TIGER import in he United States and and AND
import into the Netherlands, do it?  What limitations did they run into
and how did they resolve importing data into areas that were extensively
done?

Richard Degelder
rtdg


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Re: [Talk-ca] GeoBase Import Rev 2 - where we stand now CanVec (like Ibycus before combined maps)

[Michel Gilbert]

2008/12/9 Steve Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Sam Vekemans wrote:
>
> > So anyway...
> > No bother with GeoBase anymore... as it's CanVec which has all the data
> > already done.
>
> With respect to the road network one thing  to consider is update
> frequency.
> The Canvec data is updated twice a year, geobase seems to publish when they
> get the data ready.
>
> Right now only 4 provinces/territories have street names and 3 with
> addresses. I think we are going to be very anxious for the updates that add
> street names to the other provinces.  I am not sure how far canvec lags
> behind the geobase updates.
>
> Pulling the road data from geobase doesn't exclude pulling additional
> layers
> from canvec.  I think we would still want to deal with each layer (or
> related layers) as seperate projects.
>
> I agree with you entirely. For Geobase themes included in CanVec there will
be a lag between 6-12 months.  CTIS plans for 2 releases a year. But depends
on the timing with the provinces we may miss last minute data delivery. Also
I prefer working with Geobase tiling for import. It is easier to work 13
tiles (NRN)  than with 13000 NTS 50K tiles. For the National Hydro Network,
Geobase tile is the drainage areas. There are about 1000 of them still
easier than NTS tiles.

Michel

>
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Sam
> >
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Geogratis vs. GeoBase

[Michel Gilbert]

2008/12/9 Brent Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
> Sam Vekemans wrote:
> > Well then if thats the case, then i think that we need to fix up the
> > wiki page to reflect that. .. and state that GeoBase is 'Natural
> > Resources Canada' which IS the GeoGratis website portal showing the
> > other sites. ... (Gosh this government is confusing ;) ..  aargh! ...
> >
>
> Then I won't mention the CTIS site (http://www.cits.rncan.gc.ca/)!  (and
> no, there's no free data there (well almost none), only information)
>
> Here's my [limited] understanding:
>
> GeoGratis  - "data storage" web site for Federal NRCan Earth Sciences
> Sector free data distribution.
> CTIS   - The Federal agency responsible for topographic mapping (part
> of Earth Sciences Sector).
> GeoBase- "data storage" web site by Federal/Prov/Terr agencies to
> distribute free topographic data
>For some reason (historical?, organizational?, disk space?)
> it does not include the Federal NTS map vector data (at Geogratis) , but it
> does include NTS digital elevation models.  Go figure.
>
> CTIS is (or was) the producer of NTDB. When the no cost policy went on,
they move the distribution to the NRCan/ESS portal Geogratis. Then CTIS
started the vector data line CanVec which is a fusion of NDTB updated (some)
and GeoBase distributed by NTS tiles. Physically, NTDB, CanVec, Geobase
products are managed at CTIS.

If you do not see CanVec or other vector data on Geobase is because Geobase
is not only federal initiative. Provinces and Territories are part of the
parternship. The data on Geobase came from agreements between the partners.
Agreements are possible went they meet the Geobase principiles of quality
and update cycle. You will see new Geobase products in the next years.
They'll become available as the current ones.

Michel


>
>
> > Or perhaps im not getting it. .. Can we explain;
> >
> > 1 Where exactly the data in the Ibycus topo came from.  (if it was a big
> > set and split up, or how it was done)
>
> Likely CanVec or it's predecessor, NTDB.
>
> >
> > 2 If everything on the Ibycus Topo is now 'old'  ... how to we find the
> > new stuff??
>
> CanVec
>
> >
> > 3. What's this Atlas of Canada
> > thing? why cant i
> > download anything from that page?
>
> A web mapping site (not a data download site) for viewing CanVec/NTDB.
>  Created before CanVec/NTDB was freed.
>
> Best Regards,
> Brent Fraser
> GeoAnalytic Inc.
>
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[Talk-ca] Interview with me online this evening

[SteveC]

Watch & listen online:

5:30PM PST tonight

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-wftl-show

Best

Steve


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[Talk-ca] GeoBase CanVec nid relation NRN

[Sam Vekemans]

Hi,
Priority: So we need to find out exactly the update frequency of both
GeoBase & CanVec and if its based on the same Origional data.

Nid's:
Its apparent when looking at the shape files that every node has a
NID. when i bring it into gpsmapedit, it looses that relation. So
creating a combined map as an mp file, wouldnt work.

There needs to be a way to import the shape files so it will show in
josm with its NID, and having the right osm tag (min 2 tags for each
file; source= & point/way/area type=*)

Examine each CanVec  zip files contents:
It appears that each tile set would have the same batch of files, so a
program that can convert each type is needed. (taking only what we
want to import to osm.)

NRN:
If every node/way already has an NID, weather or not it is complete
with house #, rd name or just road, as long as the nodes of the roads
has nid's, the mapping program can still work, as there always will be
updates.

Priority: import those tiles with minimal osm data, that has road name#
After the 1st import is done, with all basic roads in there; this
update program would be able to detect if a 'name' field exists; if it
does, then the update wouldnt update that road 'way', (if it doesnt
have that field, it would import) if the imported node has the
'address:housenumber' field tag, then the import for that node wouldnt
happen. (if it doesnt, it would happen)

and so 4 rest of data:
I would recomend that... It seems that all would be available in tile
or province or region? We really need to define clearly; What data is
available to us?; What the process is for each data type is?; What (if
any) data doesnt need updating?; Who the people are who are doing
which parts of the import?; What the time frame is, how long to wait
for users, who might be able to help, but are too busy with 'day job'
but DO want to help?

>2. GeoBase import team meeting (?)

ya, im available to chat via, gmail. I do have a headset and video for
chat, if u see me online, im happy to go over details... & questioned
:@)
cheers, Sam

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Re: [Talk-ca] Geogratis vs. GeoBase

[Brent Fraser]

Sam Vekemans wrote:
> Well then if thats the case, then i think that we need to fix up the 
> wiki page to reflect that. .. and state that GeoBase is 'Natural 
> Resources Canada' which IS the GeoGratis website portal showing the 
> other sites. ... (Gosh this government is confusing ;) ..  aargh! ...
> 

Then I won't mention the CTIS site (http://www.cits.rncan.gc.ca/)!  (and no, 
there's no free data there (well almost none), only information)

Here's my [limited] understanding:

GeoGratis  - "data storage" web site for Federal NRCan Earth Sciences Sector 
free data distribution.
CTIS   - The Federal agency responsible for topographic mapping (part of 
Earth Sciences Sector).
GeoBase- "data storage" web site by Federal/Prov/Terr agencies to 
distribute free topographic data
For some reason (historical?, organizational?, disk space?) it 
does not include the Federal NTS map vector data (at Geogratis) , but it does 
include NTS digital elevation models.  Go figure.



> Or perhaps im not getting it. .. Can we explain;
> 
> 1 Where exactly the data in the Ibycus topo came from.  (if it was a big 
> set and split up, or how it was done)

Likely CanVec or it's predecessor, NTDB.

> 
> 2 If everything on the Ibycus Topo is now 'old'  ... how to we find the 
> new stuff??

CanVec

> 
> 3. What's this Atlas of Canada  
> thing? why cant i 
> download anything from that page?

A web mapping site (not a data download site) for viewing CanVec/NTDB.  Created 
before CanVec/NTDB was freed.

Best Regards,
Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.

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[Talk-ca] Canadian data - GeoGratis

[Richard Weait]

Hi folks, 

>From the good folks at Natural Resources Canada (GeoBase).  

"Yes you can use the data found on GeoGratis site .  The licences are
identical.  The only differences  are the copyrights, one is GeoBase,
the other one is NRCan (GeoGratis).

Please note: The data found on GeoGratis could have different
planimetric precision and could not fit exactly with the precise GeoBASe
data or OSM data.  Please refer to the metada info of the files you will
be using."

I'm sure that we are all excited about the additional data.  Please note
the guidance regarding precision.  

Best regards,
Richard


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Re: [Talk-ca] GeoBase Import Rev 2 - where we stand now CanVec (like Ibycus before combined maps)

[Steve Singer]

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Sam Vekemans wrote:

> So anyway...
> No bother with GeoBase anymore... as it's CanVec which has all the data
> already done.

With respect to the road network one thing  to consider is update frequency.
The Canvec data is updated twice a year, geobase seems to publish when they 
get the data ready.

Right now only 4 provinces/territories have street names and 3 with
addresses. I think we are going to be very anxious for the updates that add 
street names to the other provinces.  I am not sure how far canvec lags 
behind the geobase updates.

Pulling the road data from geobase doesn't exclude pulling additional layers 
from canvec.  I think we would still want to deal with each layer (or 
related layers) as seperate projects.



>
> Cheers,
> Sam
>

Steve

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