Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100 > From: Jarek Piórkowski > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > ... It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the > correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks > incorrect to me. > --Jarek Since St-Catharines is of french origin, why don't you look at what they did on the other side of your language border? Sainte-Catherine Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley Sainte-Adèle etc dega ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea. Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention than with French/Quebecois historical conventions. The city's corporate name uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name. In the end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name "official" and their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document. -Kevin Farrugia kevinfarru...@gmail.com On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap wrote: > > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100 > > From: Jarek Piórkowski > > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names > > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > ... It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the > > correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks > > incorrect to me. > > > --Jarek > > Since St-Catharines is of french origin, why don't you look at what they > did on the other side of your language border? > Sainte-Catherine > Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley > Sainte-Adèle > etc > > dega > > > > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
I continue to assert that our (OSM's) name=* wiki states these abbreviations should be fully expanded and that official_name=* might hold the abbreviation. In short, "them's the rules" in OSM: part of why I'm pounding so hard on this is that I might get some recognition that OSM does have rules to follow. (Slavishly? Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but please analyze and fully understand the issues before taking exception to them). There are good reasons for this "no abbreviations" tenet which have to do with software parsers being able to do sane things. Jarek and I have exchanged opinions, though what he distilled for me from his point of view is that "software parsing of names is fraught with problems..." and so we should/must "fix these problems in the data." Again, I respectfully disagree: the data are to be full names without abbreviations SO THAT software parsers have a consistent set of data to use. This is at least partly why official_name and loc_name exist. I realize that as somebody from outside Canada, some may feel I clomp clumsily here, as I don't want to get in the way of "how Canada does things." However, what we are talking about is "how Canada does things IN OSM" and about that, I am not outside the tent, I am inside of it. I continue to respect good dialog while realizing that all of us, as we display our passion in this forum, "wish to do the right things." SteveA > On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:32 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote: > St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English > speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea. > Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention > than with French/Quebecois historical conventions. The city's corporate name > uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name. In the > end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name "official" and > their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document. > > -Kevin Farrugia > kevinfarru...@gmail.com > > On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap wrote: > > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100 > > From: Jarek Piórkowski > > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > ... It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the > > correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks > > incorrect to me. > > > --Jarek > > Since St-Catharines is of french origin, why don't you look at what they did > on the other side of your language border? > Sainte-Catherine > Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley > Sainte-Adèle > etc > > dega ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
Steve - "St. Catharines" is the the official name, _and_ the local name. One can invent a full name, but it would be an invention. Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and some authority as to how to do things in OSM. --Jarek On Feb 19, 2018 22:49, "OSM Volunteer stevea" wrote: I continue to assert that our (OSM's) name=* wiki states these abbreviations should be fully expanded and that official_name=* might hold the abbreviation. In short, "them's the rules" in OSM: part of why I'm pounding so hard on this is that I might get some recognition that OSM does have rules to follow. (Slavishly? Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but please analyze and fully understand the issues before taking exception to them). There are good reasons for this "no abbreviations" tenet which have to do with software parsers being able to do sane things. Jarek and I have exchanged opinions, though what he distilled for me from his point of view is that "software parsing of names is fraught with problems..." and so we should/must "fix these problems in the data." Again, I respectfully disagree: the data are to be full names without abbreviations SO THAT software parsers have a consistent set of data to use. This is at least partly why official_name and loc_name exist. I realize that as somebody from outside Canada, some may feel I clomp clumsily here, as I don't want to get in the way of "how Canada does things." However, what we are talking about is "how Canada does things IN OSM" and about that, I am not outside the tent, I am inside of it. I continue to respect good dialog while realizing that all of us, as we display our passion in this forum, "wish to do the right things." SteveA > On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:32 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote: > St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea. Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention than with French/Quebecois historical conventions. The city's corporate name uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name. In the end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name "official" and their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document. > > -Kevin Farrugia > kevinfarru...@gmail.com > > On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap wrote: > > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100 > > From: Jarek Piórkowski > > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > ... It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the > > correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks > > incorrect to me. > > > --Jarek > > Since St-Catharines is of french origin, why don't you look at what they did on the other side of your language border? > Sainte-Catherine > Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley > Sainte-Adèle > etc > > dega ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
On 2018-02-19 05:08 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > > Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and > some authority as to how to do things in OSM. The UK has Bury St Edmunds, Chapel St Leonards, Lytham St Annes, Ottery St Mary, St Andrews, St Anne, St Austell, St Blazey, St Columb Major, St Helens, St Ives, St Monans and St Neots all as town names in OSM. The only two "Saint .*" towns in the whole British Isles' OSM are Saint Helier and Saint Peter Port, both in the Channel Islands. Both have French influences. And just to thumb its nose at us, nearby Alderney has the town of "St Anne". So I don't think they can be a great example. Near "St. Louis" (Missouri - abbreviated that way in OSM), OSM has the towns of "Saint Clair" and "Saint James". In the same area, there's St. Charles, St. Peters and East St. Louis (IL). In the St. Louis metro area, there are roughly 4500 ways named "St\. Louis.*" and roughly 3500 ways named "St Louis.*". There are also roughly 3500 ways named "Saint .*" So this is not a standard well kept. Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)
> On 2018-02-19 05:08 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: >> Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and >> some authority as to how to do things in OSM. I haven't, but I shall. As I say quite a bit (in our wiki, e.g. California/Railroads), "it's complicated around here." THEN, there is what we do about that in OSM. (Our best). On Feb 19, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > The UK has Bury St Edmunds, Chapel St Leonards, Lytham St Annes, Ottery > St Mary, St Andrews, St Anne, St Austell, St Blazey, St Columb Major, St > Helens, St Ives, St Monans and St Neots all as town names in OSM. The > only two "Saint .*" towns in the whole British Isles' OSM are Saint > Helier and Saint Peter Port, both in the Channel Islands. Both have > French influences. And just to thumb its nose at us, nearby Alderney has > the town of "St Anne". So I don't think they can be a great example. I do not mean to appear to be "the pot calling the kettle black" (even as I sheepishly may). OSM learns by example, by documenting how we should tag (prescriptive) and how we do tag (descriptive), — this isn't always clear or spelled out — by research such as you've done and by good dialog like here. > Near "St. Louis" (Missouri - abbreviated that way in OSM), OSM has the > towns of "Saint Clair" and "Saint James". In the same area, there's St. > Charles, St. Peters and East St. Louis (IL). In the St. Louis metro > area, there are roughly 4500 ways named "St\. Louis.*" and roughly 3500 > ways named "St Louis.*". There are also roughly 3500 ways named "Saint .*" > > So this is not a standard well kept. And we make our point: OSM doesn't always follow its own rules. Crowdsourcing can be messy, yet we try to improve day by day. Thanks to all for getting here! SteveA ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
