Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 06:12:46PM -0700, SteveC wrote: But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Your You probably shouldn't post things like this without talking to your lawyer. We are not going to sue you over this, but other companies might not like talk like this. jealous to the point of stripping all references to me out of your book on OpenStreetMap. You don't want anyone who's not from Germany to Steve, please, if you lie, then lie in a way that can't be checked by looking in our book on page 164 in chapter 14.6 titled Karten von CloudMade (Maps from CloudMade). The first sentence says: Die englische Firma Cloudmade, zu deren Gründern der OpenStreetMap-Erfinder Steve Coast gehört, ... (The English company CloudMade, to whichs founders belongs the OpenStreetMap-Inventor Steve Coast, ...) (Sorry for the bad translation, I have tried to keep to the original.) This quote is from the 2nd Edition (ISBN 978-3-86541-320-8). Sorry if I don't have respect for people who lie and know it. Because Frederik any you have talked about this very issue already. come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. Where did you get this from? Everybody is of course welcome to the conference we are planning. The conference language will be German, because thats the language that people here in Germany speak. I am sorry that this excludes a few billion people on this planet, but it includes the people in Germany who don't feel as comfortable with the English language. We already have an English language international conference (SOTM) and the one the German community is planning just caters to a different audience. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
On 20 Aug 2009, at 00:32, Jochen Topf wrote: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 06:12:46PM -0700, SteveC wrote: But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Your You probably shouldn't post things like this without talking to your lawyer. We are not going to sue you over this, but other companies might not like talk like this. Sorry, what would you sue me for? jealous to the point of stripping all references to me out of your book on OpenStreetMap. You don't want anyone who's not from Germany to Steve, please, if you lie, then lie in a way that can't be checked by looking in our book on page 164 in chapter 14.6 titled Karten von CloudMade (Maps from CloudMade). The first sentence says: Die englische Firma Cloudmade, zu deren Gründern der OpenStreetMap-Erfinder Steve Coast gehört, ... (The English company CloudMade, to whichs founders belongs the OpenStreetMap- Inventor Steve Coast, ...) (Sorry for the bad translation, I have tried to keep to the original.) This quote is from the 2nd Edition (ISBN 978-3-86541-320-8). Sorry if I don't have respect for people who lie and know it. Because Frederik any you have talked about this very issue already. Oh sorry, there is only one mention at the back, therefore it's ok. Why don't you remind everyone what page I was on in the first edition? But really it doesn't matter, your jealousy is well known. come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. Where did you get this from? You and Frederik. Everybody is of course welcome to the conference we are planning. The conference language will be German, because thats the language that people here in Germany speak. I am sorry that this excludes a few billion people on this planet, but it includes the people in Germany who don't feel as comfortable with the English language. We already have an English language international conference (SOTM) and the one the German community is planning just caters to a different audience. So why don't you run an international SOTM? Yours c. Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
Hello, Am 20.08.2009 um 09:37 schrieb SteveC: come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. Where did you get this from? You and Frederik. Everybody is of course welcome to the conference we are planning. The conference language will be German, because thats the language that people here in Germany speak. I am sorry that this excludes a few billion people on this planet, but it includes the people in Germany who don't feel as comfortable with the English language. We already have an English language international conference (SOTM) and the one the German community is planning just caters to a different audience. So why don't you run an international SOTM? the first german OSM Conference can be a test for the first international SOTM. Or is the next SOTM without contributioin ? Marc Yours c. Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Knowing Frederik in personal for a long time, I can tell you, that nothing could be further from the truth than this! Without the SteveC beeing founder of OSM-bonus you would have been added to my killfile right now! Sven -- If you don't make lower-resolution mapping data publicly available, there will be people with their cars and GPS devices, driving around with their laptops (Tim Berners-Lee) /me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
First I think you just breached the data protection act and are using data which even I don't have access to, but lets ignore that and the fact that Nick has actually been pushing to make the list more open. A list which only you, Mike and 80n have. I really wish we could just pay people in Kiev to do exactly what I say, but we can't. It's insulting to their integrity and intelligence to suggest that they simply become members of OSMF to vote for Nick or I. Everyone at CloudMade is encouraged to be a member of the Foundation. From me, to the ambassadors we had, to our executives to our developers. The majority of us have been members for some time. I don't know all the details as I don't deal with them on a daily basis but from my understanding is that this 'mass joining' was simply because they didn't have individual credit cards that would work from the Ukraine on paypal. To be clear, we've not told staff at CloudMade to vote for anyone. You clearly have no respect for Nick, me or anyone we employ in the Ukraine, but you could ask some of our London team to confirm this if you have any respect for them? We're in a very difficult position and don't always make the right choices. CloudMade has contributed tens of thousands of pounds in cash to the Foundation for things like sponsorship and servers. We've spent man years on coding work. Nick, me and many other in CloudMade spend far beyond 9-5 working to promote OSM and make it fly. But if we make a small mistake we're hung up to dry by people like Frederik as some kind of map-based Darth Vader figure. If we don't encourage people to join then we're not part of the community and engaged. If we do then you can interpret it as being a take over. So we walk a fine balancing act. That's just the way it is, and we try hard to make the right decisions. This is something we'll learn from. But I sincerely hope that the majority of people look at how much hard work we've put in and the good we've done for OSM despite a sometimes fractious community and the pot shots like this taken. From a practical point of view I have no idea what conspiracy we'd be trying to achieve anyway. If we really were deranged enough to try and 'take over' then firstly we could just register tens or hundreds of fake people with hotmail email addresses and avoid this. Second, I don't know what we'd be taking over. The data has very clear protections all over it to stop people taking it over and I want them only to be made stronger (not weaker Public Domain which is what Frederik wants). The Foundation has very little assets and I've put the last 5 years of my life in to making OSM better since I founded. It would be super dumb, gain me nothing and destroy my reputation and OSM to be Evil and do any of that. Anyway, the Ukraine has it's own strong community, just have a look at http://mapping.in.ua/ and I think you have your numbers wrong in assuming everyone in the Ukraine works for CloudMade. I and CloudMade are very open to learning from these kinds of hiccups and am all ears for how we can do better. I'd go so far as to suggest that maybe we could ask our Ukraine staff not to vote at all, but that would lack the same respect you don't have for them. But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Your jealous to the point of stripping all references to me out of your book on OpenStreetMap. You don't want anyone who's not from Germany to come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. I wouldn't normally point to all of that because I have a lot of respect for you and I want GeoFabrik, ITO World and all the other companies using OpenStreetMap to succeed. But you keep doing this stuff without getting any push back, and if you're going to attack people like this in public then you should declare the other side of the coin. We have a larger goal. OpenStreetMap is going to be the best map of the world and we need to work together to make it happen. Let's not squabble over this stuff because we're David right now and there is a Goliath in terms of TeleAtlas and NavTeq. We need mappers, the Foundation, the sysadmin team, developers, academia and companies to work together in an ecosystem to make it happen. Let's deal with each other in a more respectful way, don't automatically assume people are evil and assume that people are acting in good faith. That way, we can all work on a better map. I'm very contactable by anyone who has any concerns over this and encourage people to judge me and Nick on what we do and not what Frederik says. Feel free to phone me, IM or whatever. Details here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve Yours c. Steve
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
SteveC schrieb: We're in a very difficult position and don't always make the right choices. CloudMade has contributed tens of thousands of pounds in cash to the Foundation for things like sponsorship and servers. We've spent man years on coding work. Nick, me and many other in CloudMade spend far beyond 9-5 working to promote OSM and make it fly. But if we make a small mistake we're hung up to dry by people like Frederik as some kind of map-based Darth Vader figure. If you're in such a difficult position, then I would suggest to be more open in your communication to the community. In fact, I've suggested that already before. At the start of the voting period, something like: Please note: CloudMade is currently domination the OSMF board of directors and also last years votes. If you want to change this, join the OSMF now and vote would probably have reduced a lot of headache. That's what I would call open. Having ~20 CloudMade employees joining the OSMF just before the board votes closes is like raising the fuel prices just before holiday season. It might have it's reasons but it just smells to anyone outside. I wouldn't normally point to all of that because I have a lot of respect for you and I want GeoFabrik, ITO World and all the other companies using OpenStreetMap to succeed. But you keep doing this stuff without getting any push back, and if you're going to attack people like this in public then you should declare the other side of the coin. From Frederik I often get insights, from you I'm too often only hearing excuses. Regards, ULFL ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
