Re: [Talk-es] Barcelona - subway stations and routes
Hi Gernot 2009/8/12 Gernot Hillier ger...@hillier.de Hi there! First of all, I hope it's ok to contact you in English on this ist - unfortunately, I don't speak a word of Spanish. :-) Some of us speak English, so it's ok. I usually live (and map) in Landshut (http://osm.org/go/0JDdLz), but plan a holiday trip to Barcelona and Pineda De Mar in a few weeks. Hope you enjoy you vacations in Spain! Today, I started planning details of our trip as we plan to get there via Trenhotel from Zurich. And for sure, I want to use OSM for that. :-) Thus said, I had notable problems with the current map of Barcelona - most subway stations are not visible which are the most valuable landmarks for strangers like myself. I took a look on the data and found that for most subway stations, the subway_entrance's are mapped (currently not rendered by Mapnik and only quit small by Osmarender), but not the railway=halt itself. So I took the freedom to tag some nodes of existing railway tracks with the rough position of the station (guessing from the position of the entrances). Hope that's ok for you! I don't think it's ok to map things without been personally there, unless you can use some satellite imagery. For example, in Madrid, some stations have several entrances (1, 2, 3, 4 or even more) and the station may be near one, or in the middle of them. I don't remember how are Barcelona's underground entrances, but I wouldn't map any without been there. Also, why are you using railway=halt? Many railway stations in Barcelona (I don't know if all of them) are railway=station. Which one is halt and which is a station should be decided in place. Also it seems that some metro tracks (routes) are included, but far away from completion. So I wondered whether it would make sense to start adding the rough metro routes to OSM, using http://www.tmb.net/img/genplano.pdf as drawing source. This will lead to a very unprecise and rough metro network - however better then nothing, or? No, don't use that map, since it has copyright (© Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona, S.A). In this case, nothing is better than copied. Regards, Quico Looking forward to hearing your opinion... -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Barcelona - subway stations and routes
Hi! Francisco R. Santos schrieb: First of all, I hope it's ok to contact you in English on this ist - unfortunately, I don't speak a word of Spanish. :-) Some of us speak English, so it's ok. Great. :-) I usually live (and map) in Landshut (http://osm.org/go/0JDdLz), but plan a holiday trip to Barcelona and Pineda De Mar in a few weeks. Hope you enjoy you vacations in Spain! I'm quite sure I will! I just hope finding your way through the Renfe system locally will be easier than in the Web. :-) Thus said, I had notable problems with the current map of Barcelona - most subway stations are not visible which are the most valuable landmarks for strangers like myself. I took a look on the data and found that for most subway stations, the subway_entrance's are mapped (currently not rendered by Mapnik and only quit small by Osmarender), but not the railway=halt itself. So I took the freedom to tag some nodes of existing railway tracks with the rough position of the station (guessing from the position of the entrances). Hope that's ok for you! I don't think it's ok to map things without been personally there, unless you can use some satellite imagery. Hmmm, why that? I agree with you when it comes to streets etc. which you need to classify and describe in some detail. However, from a passenger's perspective, a subway network is a quite abstract thing, especially when nearly all stations are already in the map and you only need to connect them. And as I don't need to classify or describe stations with more than the name, I don't see the real advantage of being there. The exact position where the trains stop and the subway routes will be quite inaccurate. The first can be fixed within minutes by local mappers and the latter will usually be rough anyways as you won't have GPS reception in the tunnel. Aditionally, an abstraction of a train stop with a point is very inprecise in it's nature (taking into account the length of a train). And finally, I usually use Yahoo images for verifying things - however for a subway network, they won't be too helpful, I doubt. :) For example, in Madrid, some stations have several entrances (1, 2, 3, 4 or even more) and the station may be near one, or in the middle of them. I don't remember how are Barcelona's underground entrances, but I wouldn't map any without been there. Well, the question is always what you want to achieve with a map. A map's always an abstraction of reality and thus it will never be exact. And here, I still think that having rough information is much better than having none. Surely, I'll add a note to my commits that this is only roughly drawn, so I expect local mappers to fix it very fast... Also, why are you using railway=halt? Many railway stations in Barcelona (I don't know if all of them) are railway=station. Which one is halt and which is a station should be decided in place. Sorry, I surely meant railway=station. So I wondered whether it would make sense to start adding the rough metro routes to OSM, using http://www.tmb.net/img/genplano.pdf as drawing source. This will lead to a very unprecise and rough metro network - however better then nothing, or? No, don't use that map, since it has copyright (© Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona, S.A). In this case, nothing is better than copied. Thankfully, it turned out, that really most stations were already mapped in barcelona with the subway_entrance nodes. So the only piece of information I'll steal from this map is the fact which line stops at which stations. I really don't think this kind of information can be copyrighted at all as it's common knowledge and no creativity is involved here. -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Barcelona - subway stations and routes
Hi! Gernot Hillier wrote: Francisco R. Santos schrieb: Hope you enjoy you vacations in Spain! I'm quite sure I will! I just hope finding your way through the Renfe You will, Barcelona is a great city. I'm quite sure I will! I just hope finding your way through the Renfe system locally will be easier than in the Web. :-) Don't hope so. Renfe is the worst railway company in the world, well, at least in Catalonia. Also, during august, Renfe service inside Barcelona is under repair, they are changing a 40 year old electric system. The metro network is good, so avoid Renfe at all expenses. Thus said, I had notable problems with the current map of Barcelona - most subway stations are not visible which are the most valuable landmarks for strangers like myself. Reply at the and. I took a look on the data and found that for most subway stations, the subway_entrance's are mapped (currently not rendered by Mapnik and only quit small by Osmarender), but not the railway=halt itself. So I took the freedom to tag some nodes of existing railway tracks with the rough position of the station (guessing from the position of the entrances). Hope that's ok for you! I don't think it's ok to map things without been personally there, unless you can use some satellite imagery. Hmmm, why that? I agree with you when it comes to streets etc. which you need to classify and describe in some detail. However, from a passenger's perspective, a subway network is a quite abstract thing, especially when nearly all stations are already in the map and you only need to connect them. And as I don't need to classify or describe stations with more than the name, I don't see the real advantage of being there. The exact position where the trains stop and the subway routes will be quite inaccurate. The first can be fixed within minutes by local mappers and the latter will usually be rough anyways as you won't have GPS reception in the tunnel. Aditionally, an abstraction of a train stop with a point is very inprecise in it's nature (taking into account the length of a train). And finally, I usually use Yahoo images for verifying things - however for a subway network, they won't be too helpful, I doubt. :) I agree with Francisco, I tried to use some Renfe information and all material, including timetables, is copyrighted. Also FGC (Catalan train system) and Metro information is copyrighted (and of course no public domain) So if you don't violate any copyright, fell free of mapping what you like, that's OSM. For example, in Madrid, some stations have several entrances (1, 2, 3, 4 or even more) and the station may be near one, or in the middle of them. I don't remember how are Barcelona's underground entrances, but I wouldn't map any without been there. Barcelona metro network usually have four entrances, some of them wheelchair accessible, some not. When you are in Barcelona you can accurate the information. ... No, don't use that map, since it has copyright (© Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona, S.A). In this case, nothing is better than copied. Thankfully, it turned out, that really most stations were already mapped in barcelona with the subway_entrance nodes. So the only piece of information I'll steal from this map is the fact which line stops at which stations. I really don't think this kind of information can be copyrighted at all as it's common knowledge and no creativity is involved here. Unfortunately, this information is copyrighted. It should'n be, but it is. So please don't copy. Barcelona is not very well mapped, I agree. Now, I'm leading a project with the Metropolitan Council of Barcelona (Barcelona + 20 municipalities) to test the migration of all its data to OSM. So if the project succeeds, I hope next year they will donate the data and we will import this data to OSM main servers. Yours, Jaume. ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Barcelona - subway stations and routes
Hi! Jaume Figueras schrieb: You will, Barcelona is a great city. Yes, that's what many people say. I'm really looking forward to it... :) I'm quite sure I will! I just hope finding your way through the Renfe system locally will be easier than in the Web. :-) Don't hope so. Renfe is the worst railway company in the world, well, at least in Catalonia. Also, during august, Renfe service inside Barcelona is under repair, they are changing a 40 year old electric system. The After fiddling around for about an hour with the timetable system which insisted on telling me that it's impossible to get from Sants to Pineda de Mar, I might agree. :) They actually have a nice PDF with helpful pictures for strangers, but why can't they add a link to it in the error message of the search result page telling you *why* there's no connection? metro network is good, so avoid Renfe at all expenses. I see, thanks for the hint! Sounds familiar - many people say the same for Munich (take the underground, avoid the S trains). :-) I agree with Francisco, I tried to use some Renfe information and all material, including timetables, is copyrighted. Also FGC (Catalan train system) and Metro information is copyrighted (and of course no public domain) Well, only stating that something is copyrighted doesn't put it under a copyright if there's no creative act needed to create this work. The final visual appearance of an underground network map is for sure creative work and protected (being it explicitly stated or not). So if you use it as template for literally copying it (e.g. by using it as background picture while drawing your map), this is most likely copyright infringement. The sole information you take from it about connections between the stations shouldn't be protected by copyright law. If you read it and only use this knowledge while drawing (not copy'n'pasting the map!), there shall be no problem. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to create e.g. Wikipedia pages about the Barcelona Metro network listing the L1 stations! So if you don't violate any copyright, fell free of mapping what you like, that's OSM. Unfortunately, this information is copyrighted. It should'n be, but it is. So please don't copy. As Open Source consultant and enthusiast, I'm quite sensitive about copyright stuff, so don't worry... :-) Barcelona is not very well mapped, I agree. Now, I'm leading a project with the Metropolitan Council of Barcelona (Barcelona + 20 municipalities) to test the migration of all its data to OSM. So if the project succeeds, I hope next year they will donate the data and we will import this data to OSM main servers. Congrats, that would be really nice. Perhaps I can enjoy it on my next trip? :-) -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
