Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
My take is that Matthijs' heroic stand is a gesture of sacrifice of a small portion of his sanity for the greater good of OSM However, i will totally admit to secretly preparing a kind of endographic study of the social work of the DWG which i'm going to knock some academics out of the sky with. We all have our coping strategies On December 18, 2014 6:14:40 PM GMT, Phil Endecott wrote: >Brian Prangle wrote: >> Matthij's proposal as it now stands is not controversial and >> is merely a typo cleanup. I'm amazed at his patience. > >My assumption is that Matthijs is preparing an academic paper about >OSM in which he will reveal the number of hours work required per >byte of non-controversial database change, with some extrapolations >about the ultimate consequences for the project. I can't imagine >anyone would go through this otherwise. > > >Phil. > > > > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Post-Christmas Midlands OSM Meet-up
Hi there, SK 53 (sk53@gmail.com) invites you to participate in the Doodle poll "Post-Christmas Midlands OSM Meet-up". SK 53 says: Idea is to meet somewhere accessible to both E&W Midland OSMers in the week after Xmas. The meeting would be in the day time, with the idea of initially surveying some rights of way (or just their designations), adjourning to a pub for a drink and/or lunch. Possible areas mentioned are: Foxton (Leics), near Burton (perhaps Barton, or Abbots Bromley), Muston (Leics). Final location will really depend on interest & maximising convenience for participants. Suggested start time is 10:30, but 11:00 may suit better. Any other suggestions etc, reply to talk-gb. Note I'm a newbie at setting up a Doodle poll, so apologies if this is all askew! Jerry Participate now https://doodle.com/47ey64h55fa52dtt?tmail=poll_invitecontact_participant_invitation_with_message&tlink=pollbtn What is Doodle? Doodle is a web service that helps SK 53 to find a suitable date for meeting with a group of people. Learn more about how Doodle works. (https://doodle.com/main.html?tlink=checkOutLink&tmail=poll_invitecontact_participant_invitation_with_message) -- You have received this e-mail because "SK 53" has invited you to participate in the Doodle poll "Post-Christmas Midlands OSM Meet-up." Doodle AG, Werdstrasse 21, 8021 Zürich ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] No more voting on mechanical edits
Andy, I idea that "lets not fix things as it might be better to resurvey by hand" for rejecting it is not any part of DWG policy or standards. You should stop pretending like it is. It seems like you want to appease the people those they think there area is mapped and need prompting to do any mapping. Notes answer is a cop out answer. It fixes nothing of things that can actually be fixed. We all know that a resurvey every few months of an average high street, etc is likely going to show changes. If these people want something to do and cannot think for themselves then I can write a bot that will place a note say "Please resurvey" every if nothing has changed in retail area greater then x in y months. Also the "it seems to me like it is pointless" is no reason again for DWG to reject this. There are many things I could think are pointless that I do not map and I am sure vice versa . If someone wants to map waste paper bins, benches, car park lanes, disabled access, grass verges on traffic islands, etc you should not stop nor discourage them. If someone want to *fix* waste paper bins, benches, car park lanes, disabled access, grass verges on traffic islands, etc you should not stop nor discourage them. Also the reason "lets not do the mech edit because not all the info of that type is in the database" is *not* reason for DWG to reject it. Let's me explain how this helps. If say the mapping as shop name is in taginfo 33% A, 33% B, 33% C then what do we name it. Each of us on a whim name it as we want or maybe have a more consistent name. What is more useful? dozens of names or just 1 or 2? We all know it is the same shop. I would be happy, and I imagine most be, would be to get an indication of how best to map it. Style and constancy is something we as a community should at least consider. Rather than reject outright. There seem to be too much hippie commune attitude of free love and free tagging here. It might work in small communities but when you have bigger projects like this is now we need more co-ordination. We do x in my patch, y in my patch, z in my patch. Again really how does that help anyone? People only care about there only little bit of the map. You travel 20 miles away and all the standards can be so different? I was actually hoping you were going to give ideas of how the mechanical edit could go ahead when you had suggestions alas not. In the spirit of freedom of information what mechanical edit would you are DWG in general actually approve? What have you approved? I know a fair bit about the data now and understand the station issues, etc. For people I know know computers I am surprised how little you want to use them to fix data issues. I have said before about data issues. Post processing is needed in many things but *first* if possible you should fix the data. That is all, as you know, we are trying to do here. (I often in situations you were talking I imagine it was not possible to fix the data here it is.) I can quote examples til the cows come home about the bad data in the database. Data that is came across it in you local patch you would fix without question. The real issue is some vocal people here don't want anyone editing in their area - at all. Period. They are so self indulgent they think that the project is not a community project at all it is *theirs*. Low and behold any sort of community consensus about how the rest of the world/country does things. They will just do it their way and ignore everyone else. They seem jealous of others actually mapping stuff. Oh as for "OSM dinosaurs" I see equally derogatory name-calling remarks all the time from the same OSMers, lets take "wikifiddlers", "armchair mappers", etc. Hell there is even that official looking graphic that some of you have adopted on your userpages. And you can do plenty from behind a computer keyboard, shops included. All you need a little skill and work. We can also talk about all this over the next pint. :-) Cheers, John -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/No-more-voting-on-mechanical-edits-tp5827513p5827786.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] No more voting on mechanical edits
On 19 December 2014 at 12:10, SomeoneElse wrote: > I suggested that any plan for changes to the shop names and > values that we have now would also need to address how new users decide > which ones to use. > > For iD, names are suggested via > https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/ , and > https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/master/canonical.json > is the "canonical list of known good ones". I suggested to Matthijs that > some sort of localisation might make sense there, since shop names do vary > (and thinking further about it shop functions do too - an Australian > Woolworths is very different to what a UK Woolworths was). He was aware of > name-suggestion-index but didn't seem to be aware of the canonical list. I am in fact aware of the canonical list. Dan has already taken up adding part of my changes: https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/12/files I'd be happy to help him. I don't think we necessarily need to coordinate the mechanical edit and the correction of name-suggestion-index, though. As the rest of your e-mail mainly consists of points that have been addressed before, I'm not sure if it's useful to respond to them again. If there is any particular issue you would like my response to, please let me know. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] No more voting on mechanical edits
On 18/12/2014 18:59, Rovastar wrote: Well please share the thoughts about what suggestions you have. The big problem is not really whether a particular shop has an apostrophe in the name or not, but the fact that we don't have anything like all of said shops mapped. I suggested that any plan for changes to the shop names and values that we have now would also need to address how new users decide which ones to use. For iD, names are suggested via https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/ , and https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/master/canonical.json is the "canonical list of known good ones". I suggested to Matthijs that some sort of localisation might make sense there, since shop names do vary (and thinking further about it shop functions do too - an Australian Woolworths is very different to what a UK Woolworths was). He was aware of name-suggestion-index but didn't seem to be aware of the canonical list. Speaking entirely personally, I don't think that Matthijs suggesting that we add e.g. a missing apostrophe to a shop brand that is well-established as having one** is necessarily "wrong", it's just "almost entirely pointless" if we have so few of that shop brand mapped that the data isn't really useful. Postprocessing data from large databases to make sense of it is something that you _always have to do_*. It's not just OSM; any large dataset has this problem. Try extracting data for railway stations as an example (seriously - try it - don't just write an email about it - actually try it, look at the exceptions and see what you get). Is that preserved railway station a "station"? What about the miniature railway in a park? What actual features did $customer want when they were looking for a "station" anyway? When OSM's data is more complete it might make more sense to say "right, now lets look at those exceptions" - but that has to be done on a case by case basis, you can't just assume that X is Y, because you've seen an X locally and have never been to the area where Y is. Having 10 people ticking a box on a wiki doesn't address that problem, a proper discusion does. Following on from that, removing "wrong" data from OSM globally does cause one problem - it makes it much harder to see which areas have been inexpertly mapped. If someone's got the spelling or a shop tag woefully wrong, what about their other edits? That wrong tag might be the "canary in the coal mine" that indicates other problems that need a proper survey to investigate and fix. Another similar issues is missing bridges over rivers and streams - adding a generic bridge might "fix" the problem on the QA site, but it takes away the pointer to an area that needs a survey (is there really a bridge, or a culvert under the road?). That's why (despite the teeth-sucking on the #osm-gb list whenever it happens) I think that Matthijs' adding of OSM notes for these "miscategorised" shops is an excellent idea, though I wish that each note contained a link to the item in question. What we seem to be forgetting in this discussion is that we're all supposed to be on the same side here, something that the name-calling (e.g. referring to someone as an "OSM dinosaur") and cheap points-scoring doesn't help with. Many people in OSM regularly help other people with their pet projects. For example, I've mapped more bits of Derwent Aqueduct infrastructure than any sane person could show a reasonable interest in (sorry Paul if you're reading) and I've also tried to help Matthijs get community acceptance for what he's trying to achieve here. We have to work together, but in the case of mapping shops (the 90% that we don't know about yet), the main thing that you have to do is to _actually go out and map the shops_. You can't do it from behind a computer keyboard. Cheers, Andy * I've worked on statistical data extraction and combination from mechanical and digital systems on and off since the mid-1980s. ** Some brands do seem to use entirely consistent branding, some do not and some are in a process of change (as discussed at length on the previous thread). ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
