Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project Oct-Dec 2016

[SK53]

The three obvious categories are restaurants (inc. cafes), takeaways &
pubs. Supermarkets is a small set. Schools we've already done. Retailers
(other) covers convenience stores and other small food shops. The other
categories are less useful (although care homes in conjunction with CQC
Open Data is a relatively small group which is probably undermapped).

I'd actually avoid trying to filter on groups because in general it's much
easier to maintain data for rows of shops which is complete. One runs into
issues with nodes being slightly misplaced, name changes etc which in the
end make it harder to track. It was Paul William's mapping of Mansfield
Road in Nottingham back in 2011 which made me realise this. I'd done a bit
of shop mapping before a London pub meeting and found my productivity was
really low because bits & pieces were already there but not quite in the
right place.

The selection criterion I used when I did this back in 2013 for Nottingham
was numbers of FHRS entries per postcode. I used QGIS to show these as bubbles
and was able to create a
GPX file from QGIS for my Garmin. The advantage was that I could knock off
a known number quickly: mainly I just visited a place on Sunday morning &
took photos, a few house numbers from the surrounding area for additional
context for addressing & that was it. Of course these leaves you with
isolated ones in funny places, but most of these I linked to when I was
doing something in the car so that it was easier to visit the sites quickly.

Jerry

On 26 September 2016 at 12:40, Dave F  wrote:

> A.
>
> However the FHRS database is quite big, so maybe just do a subset, say,
> restaurants?
>
> Dave F.
>
> On 26/09/2016 12:20, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> 5 days to go until the next UK Quarterly Project
>
> Without spinning off into a discussion of the merits of each
> suggestionwhat do we need to do to agree the subject?
>
> I believe that suggestions were:
>
> A. improving address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset
> B. town centre blitzes
> C. civil parishes
> D. trig points
> E. speed limits
> F. a collaboration with the German Community
>
> please repeat and expand the list if I missed one.
>
> Regards,
>  Jez
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[SK53]

I just re-read a post

I wrote nearly 3 years ago. I think a lot of it holds true today, so I've
copied the main points here :


   1. The simplest, but not necessarily the easiest target, is to map at
   least one postcode in each postcode sector. This is harder than it appears
   because obvious things to map in sparsely populated rural areas may require
   surveys. For instance FHRS data has two B in Port Wemyss on Islay, but
   the names are not shown on the OS Open Data StreetView. Similarly a degree
   of caution must be exercised on farms in the Rhinns of Islay and on the Oa
   because individual farmsteads may include two or three properties (perhaps
   all owned by the same extended family, but nonetheless distinct.

   2. Achieve 5% completion. This reflects a DOUBLING of current postcode
   data, and therefore must be regarded as ambitious. This is however, the
   minimum condition for breaking the back of the postcode problem. I believe
   with a concerted effort we could achieve this in 3 months, using
   conventional crowd-sourcing techniques.

   3. Achieve 10% completion. A second doubling will probably require more
   tool based support. The obvious targets are semi-automated matching of FHRS
   & Land Registry data, and semi-automated identification of single postcode
   streets.

   4. Postcodes along major roads (A & B roads). These may require some
   survey work, but again because many retail outlets are along such roads
   there is already a decent amount of information available from FHRS.

This was December 2013, so perhaps 5% and 10% should be nearer 10% and 20%.
I don't have up-to-date figures but back in May 2015 we had 73,372 full
well-formed postcodes for GB (not whole of UK) which is still under 5%.
These were located in just under 8000 postcode sectors (out of a total of
12,300 or so, with another 1000 populated in the last year). FHRS data has
information on nearly 250k postcodes (inc NI) and 10k distinct postcode
sectors. All these figures are based on raw strings, i.e., not checked if
valid or in the right place. We still have thousands of schools mapped
without postcode (even some where ref_edubase was added) so this is another
fairly easy target.

The big difference from 3 years ago is that we have more people interested
in creating tools to assist these processes: something where the 3 month
timescale is better than a shorter one.

We have needed to get more address data for some, but on its own it's not a
very strong motivator. My hopes for making big progress with Land Registry
data were dashed once OpenAddresses and Owen Boswara clarified the 3rd
party content in the data, and similarly the OpenAddresses project finished
without having much in the way of additional data to offer us. (I still
believe that there's scope in their approach and they built some
interesting tools, but it was predicated on already having a decent amount
of usable open data). When one looks at the formidable success of BANO in
France there must be scope for something similar in the UK.

I'm going to try & update my PC completion maps for the UK. I have some now
but I know I have lost data from filtering the gb file.

Jerry


On 26 September 2016 at 11:44, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> It looks like the next UK Quarterly Project will be based on improving
> address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset. Why don't we
> have a push generally on postcodes too, not limiting it to town centres?
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> On 26 September 2016 at 11:25, David Woolley 
> wrote:
>
>> On 26/09/16 10:19, Owen Boswarva wrote:
>>
>>> That could be done but it's not straightforward; you'll get a lot of
>>> overlapping postcode sectors and sectors with non-contiguous parts.
>>> GeoLytix produced an open dataset like that some time ago:
>>> http://blog.geolytix.net/tag/postcode-boundaries/
>>>
>>
>> In my view, inferring polygons is something that should only be done in
>> the data consumer, as they involve creating data that cannot be justified
>> from the input data.
>>
>>
>>> On 26 September 2016 at 09:39, Colin Smale >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> How about deriving polygons for the postcode sector level (XX9 9)
>>> from the centroid point cloud, and adding the polygons to OSM? I
>>> don't know how many that would give, but it would be a whole lot
>>> less than 500k and still at a very usable level.
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project Oct-Dec 2016

[Dan S]

2016-09-26 12:20 GMT+01:00 Jez Nicholson :
> 5 days to go until the next UK Quarterly Project
>
> Without spinning off into a discussion of the merits of each
> suggestionwhat do we need to do to agree the subject?
>
> I believe that suggestions were:
>
> A. improving address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset
> B. town centre blitzes
> C. civil parishes
> D. trig points
> E. speed limits
> F. a collaboration with the German Community

Well, I think my suggestion was:
G. opening_hours for local services such as cafes/restaurants

I think this would mesh well with suggestion A, but please note that
suggestion G is not sourced from any particular dataset.

Best
Dan

> please repeat and expand the list if I missed one.
>
> Regards,
>  Jez
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project Oct-Dec 2016

[Dave F]

A.

However the FHRS database is quite big, so maybe just do a subset, say, 
restaurants?


Dave F.

On 26/09/2016 12:20, Jez Nicholson wrote:

5 days to go until the next UK Quarterly Project

Without spinning off into a discussion of the merits of each 
suggestionwhat do we need to do to agree the subject?


I believe that suggestions were:

A. improving address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset
B. town centre blitzes
C. civil parishes
D. trig points
E. speed limits
F. a collaboration with the German Community

please repeat and expand the list if I missed one.

Regards,
   Jez


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[Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project Oct-Dec 2016

[Jez Nicholson]

5 days to go until the next UK Quarterly Project

Without spinning off into a discussion of the merits of each
suggestionwhat do we need to do to agree the subject?

I believe that suggestions were:

A. improving address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset
B. town centre blitzes
C. civil parishes
D. trig points
E. speed limits
F. a collaboration with the German Community

please repeat and expand the list if I missed one.

Regards,
 Jez
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Brian Prangle]

It looks like the next UK Quarterly Project will be based on improving
address data for town centres using the food hygiene dataset. Why don't we
have a push generally on postcodes too, not limiting it to town centres?

Regards

Brian

On 26 September 2016 at 11:25, David Woolley 
wrote:

> On 26/09/16 10:19, Owen Boswarva wrote:
>
>> That could be done but it's not straightforward; you'll get a lot of
>> overlapping postcode sectors and sectors with non-contiguous parts.
>> GeoLytix produced an open dataset like that some time ago:
>> http://blog.geolytix.net/tag/postcode-boundaries/
>>
>
> In my view, inferring polygons is something that should only be done in
> the data consumer, as they involve creating data that cannot be justified
> from the input data.
>
>
>> On 26 September 2016 at 09:39, Colin Smale > > wrote:
>>
>> How about deriving polygons for the postcode sector level (XX9 9)
>> from the centroid point cloud, and adding the polygons to OSM? I
>> don't know how many that would give, but it would be a whole lot
>> less than 500k and still at a very usable level.
>>
>>
>
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[Talk-GB] UK OSM Community Interest Company (UK local chapter)

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

Now that SotM has finished we should have time to concentrate on the pro
bono legal review of our Articles of Association. I'll give it a week for
folk to fnd time to look at this. If there's a deal of contention on any
issue then we'll have  a concall to resolve it, if not then I'll proceed to
send off the documents and fee to register us at Companies House.

Regards

Brian

*Powers* (Articles 6 and 8)

We have simplified the powers to reflect that the articles allow the CIC to
do “all such lawful things…without limitation”.



*Conflicts of interest* (Article 20)

If there are specific concerns within the wording deleted from Articles
20.2 and 20.3, please let us know.  We have deleted the wording since all
transactional conflicts would need to be approved by the board.



*Directors* (Articles 23, 24 and 37)

We have introduced the AGM concept into Article 24 to propose a governance
structure whereby 1/3 of the board retires annually by rotation, is this OK?



*Membership* (Articles 27 and 29)

We have simplified the approach on membership and removed some duplicate
provisions:

· We have made a distinction between Ordinary and Associate Members
only in that Associate Members cannot vote; please see Article 40.1.

· We have not distinguished between natural person members and body
corporate members for the purposes of Ordinary Membership.  Under Article
27.3, every member is to be approved by the board.  However, if you would
like to retain specific wording from the original version please let us
know.



*Meetings* (Article 30)

We have used standard AGM wording here which we think is appropriate but
please let me know if you have any queries.


I hope that helps.  Let me know if you have any additional questions or
would like to discuss any of the above in further detail.


Document Link

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[David Woolley]

On 26/09/16 10:19, Owen Boswarva wrote:

That could be done but it's not straightforward; you'll get a lot of
overlapping postcode sectors and sectors with non-contiguous parts.
GeoLytix produced an open dataset like that some time ago:
http://blog.geolytix.net/tag/postcode-boundaries/


In my view, inferring polygons is something that should only be done in 
the data consumer, as they involve creating data that cannot be 
justified from the input data.




On 26 September 2016 at 09:39, Colin Smale > wrote:

How about deriving polygons for the postcode sector level (XX9 9)
from the centroid point cloud, and adding the polygons to OSM? I
don't know how many that would give, but it would be a whole lot
less than 500k and still at a very usable level.




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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[SK53]

As far as I know Nominatim contains a copy of either the CodePoint Open or
ONS postcodes in a table called gb_postcode (see here
on
github). Here's a search
for
a well-known postcode, and one can see similar postcodes from the search
too. So the base data is there.

However, it seems fairly hit or miss what it finds. For instance SW1A 1AA
is not picked up, but my previous example SW1A 2AA is. There are clearly
problems with name collisions: M30 ### postcodes seem to get resolved to a
road in Hungary. There are some known bugs with the search such as this one
. AFAIK none of the current
principal maintainers of Nominatim (ie lonvia) lives in Britain. Surely the
most useful thing would be to resolve this in the Nominatim code base.

The second most useful thing would be for people to add postcodes in OSM.
We have, I think, somewhere between 5 & 10% of postcodes in OSM. Very
roughly we doubled the number of postcodes in the past 3 years, which if
continued would suggest 2041 as a rough date for completing them.

Jerry

On 26 September 2016 at 10:17, Gervase Markham  wrote:

> On 26/09/16 09:39, Chris Hill wrote:
> > Please do not add postcode centroids to the map. They are not real, do
> > not exist and do not belong in the OSM DB.
>
> Just so we know, what is your view of the correct way for OSM search
> engines to allow searching on postcode data from around the world? Do
> you advocate for each search engine importing each postcode file from N
> countries as a separate external datasource? Or are you saying that we
> want to make it so that no-one can search for a postcode until someone
> has made the effort to find a particular building with that postcode and
> added the postcode to the building's address?
>
> Gerv
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 25/09/16 23:24, Chris Hill wrote:
> Postcodes don't apply to a road, they apply to a collection of delivery
> points. Many, many roads have multiple postcodes

Reply on phone went to wrong place ;)
If we have buildings on a road, then the postcode goes on every
building, but I still think that is wrong. The alternative of putting on
road does not work for the reason Chris gives, but grouping all the
houses having a common street name and post code cuts down on the volume
of duplication in the data. One thing that a postcode is SUPPOSED to
avoid is having two different street name elements for the postcode, so
at least the sections of a road can be consistent. So yes - 'Postcodes
never apply to more than one street', but we may have a different
postcode on either side of a street :( The main reason for searching for
a postcode is for the routing software, and in those cases identifying
the road is useful when the 'centroid' can be some distance of track. If
the postcode is only on the buildings then the result can be even worse
where roads are in close proximity, so we probably have to put up with
duplication on building and the correct adjacent road, although
'postcode for GPS' is common in rural areas - and confuses things further.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Owen Boswarva]

ONS's National Statistics Postcode Lookup (NSPL) includes postcodes for the
Isle of Man and Channel Islands, but without geographic coordinates.

http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets?q=National+Statistics+Postcode+Lookup_by=relevance

Owen

On 26 September 2016 at 09:55, Christian Ledermann <
christian.lederm...@gmail.com> wrote:

OS Codepoint also does not include the postcodes for the Isle of Man
> and the channel islands.
> Is there an open data source for theses postcodes?
>
> On 26 September 2016 at 09:01, Gervase Markham 
> wrote:
> > On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote:
> >> I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
> >> Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
> >> Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
> >> page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.
> >
> > OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
> > understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
> > to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
> > with something like type = "postcode_centre"?
> >
> > Gerv
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Christian Ledermann
>
> Newark-on-Trent - UK
> Mobile : +44 7474997517
>
> https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
> https://github.com/cleder/
>
>
> <*)))>{
>
> If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
> you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
> you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.
>
> 1) Don’t drive species to extinction
>
> 2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.
>
> 3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.
>
> }<(((*>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Owen Boswarva]

That could be done but it's not straightforward; you'll get a lot of
overlapping postcode sectors and sectors with non-contiguous parts.
GeoLytix produced an open dataset like that some time ago:
http://blog.geolytix.net/tag/postcode-boundaries/

Owen

On 26 September 2016 at 09:39, Colin Smale  wrote:

> How about deriving polygons for the postcode sector level (XX9 9) from the
> centroid point cloud, and adding the polygons to OSM? I don't know how many
> that would give, but it would be a whole lot less than 500k and still at a
> very usable level.
>
>
> //colin
>
> On 2016-09-26 10:01, Gervase Markham wrote:
>
> On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote:
>
> I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
> Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
> Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
> page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.
>
>
> OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
> understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
> to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
> with something like type = "postcode_centre"?
>
> Gerv
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Gervase Markham]

On 26/09/16 09:39, Chris Hill wrote:
> Please do not add postcode centroids to the map. They are not real, do
> not exist and do not belong in the OSM DB.

Just so we know, what is your view of the correct way for OSM search
engines to allow searching on postcode data from around the world? Do
you advocate for each search engine importing each postcode file from N
countries as a separate external datasource? Or are you saying that we
want to make it so that no-one can search for a postcode until someone
has made the effort to find a particular building with that postcode and
added the postcode to the building's address?

Gerv


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Shaun McDonald]

I'm wondering if this FAQ is still up to date, which notes that the postcodes 
were computed in October 2012 and haven't been updated since. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim/FAQ#My_postcode_is_missing.2Fwrong_but_I.27ve_fixed_it_in_the_OSM_data._What_is_wrong.3F
 There are many duplicate tickets about postcodes in Trac and Github issue 
trackers.

I'd much prefer to load the OS open data as a separate list into Nominatim, 
otherwise it'll be a nightmare trying to update the OSM data when the next 
release of the OS open data comes out. Adding postcodes to specific buildings 
in OSM is still useful to produce more accurate geocoding and reverse geocoding 
results.

Shaun

> On 26 Sep 2016, at 09:39, Chris Hill  wrote:
> 
> Please do not add postcode centroids to the map. They are not real, do not 
> exist and do not belong in the OSM DB.
> 
> On 26 September 2016 09:01:38 BST, Gervase Markham  
> wrote:
> On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote:
>  I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
>  Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
>  Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
>  page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.
> 
> OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
> understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
> to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
> with something like type = "postcode_centre"?
> 
> Gerv
> 
> 
> 
> Talk-GB mailing list
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Cheers, Chris (chillly)
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Christian Ledermann]

OS Codepoint also does not include the postcodes for the Isle of Man
and the channel islands.
Is there an open data source for theses postcodes?

On 26 September 2016 at 09:01, Gervase Markham  wrote:
> On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote:
>> I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
>> Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
>> Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
>> page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.
>
> OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
> understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
> to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
> with something like type = "postcode_centre"?
>
> Gerv
>
>
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-- 
Best Regards,

Christian Ledermann

Newark-on-Trent - UK
Mobile : +44 7474997517

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
https://github.com/cleder/


<*)))>{

If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.

1) Don’t drive species to extinction

2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.

3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.

}<(((*>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

How about deriving polygons for the postcode sector level (XX9 9) from
the centroid point cloud, and adding the polygons to OSM? I don't know
how many that would give, but it would be a whole lot less than 500k and
still at a very usable level.

//colin 

On 2016-09-26 10:01, Gervase Markham wrote:

> On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote: 
> 
>> I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
>> Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
>> Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
>> page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.
> 
> OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
> understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
> to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
> with something like type = "postcode_centre"?
> 
> Gerv
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Postcodes

[Gervase Markham]

On 25/09/16 21:47, Owen Boswarva wrote:
> I can't see any reason why there should be a problem using Code-Point
> Open in OSM, now that Ordnance Survey has applied the Open Government
> Licence in place of its own licence. If you read further down, the wiki
> page gives examples of OSM projects that use Code-Point Open.

OK, that's good news. What's the quickest route to getting Nominatim to
understand this data set? File a Nominatim bug to get the search engine
to import the data set directly? Or add 500,000ish points to OSM itself
with something like type = "postcode_centre"?

Gerv


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