Re: [Talk-GB] [Imports] Importing fuel stations in UK and future similar imports

[David Woolley]

On 13/05/17 10:48, David Woolley wrote:

Also, maps are covered by database rights as well as copyright, for 15
years, and that is the real issue for geocoding, as it doesn't require
any degree of creativity.


I should have added that the fair dealing exemption for database rights 
explicitly forbids commercial use, see clause 20(1)(b) 
, whereas OSM 
licensing requires that the data be usable for commercial purposes.


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Re: [Talk-GB] [Imports] Importing fuel stations in UK and future similar imports

[David Woolley]

On 13/05/17 08:08, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

There is no "fair use" clause in UK copyright law, which is important not
just because OSM is hosted in England & Wales but also because this is
presumably a dataset in part containing materials with an E copyright
holder.


Also, maps are covered by database rights as well as copyright, for 15 
years, and that is the real issue for geocoding, as it doesn't require 
any degree of creativity.


UK copyright law does cover databases, but only to the extent that there 
has been an element of creativity.  For most maps that element almost 
certainly exists, in terms of how shapes have been simplified, and 
features selected as important enough to include.


However there is a second level of protection, which covers things like 
telephone directories, once you eliminate the copyright that does exist 
in the typographical arrangement.  See 
.  In 
particular see clause 16(2) 
, where 
it explicitly says that piecemeal extraction of the data is as much an 
offence as extracting a substantial part all at once.  This is why OSM 
cannot adopt the Wikipedia philosophy of allowing databases to be copied 
one entry per article.


(On fair use and fair dealing, these terms are not well defined in 
English or US law, but one element of them is generally that it should 
not be to the commercial disadvantage of the rights owner, and another, 
at least for the UK, is that there must be a public interest in doing so.)


IANAL TINLA


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Re: [Talk-GB] [Imports] Importing fuel stations in UK and future similar imports

[Ilya Zverev]

Thanks, Richard. The dataset in question definitely was not geocoded, 
but I will inform Navads about possible issues with geocoded datasets.


Ilya

13.05.2017 10:08, Richard Fairhurst пишет:

Ilya Zverev wrote:

I think that would fall into the "fair use" clause.


There is no "fair use" clause in UK copyright law, which is important not
just because OSM is hosted in England & Wales but also because this is
presumably a dataset in part containing materials with an E copyright
holder.

The comparable clause is "fair dealing" and has significantly less scope
than the US "fair use". There may be other aspects of copyright law you
could look at but I wouldn't rely on this one.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] [Imports] Importing fuel stations in UK and future similar imports

[Richard Fairhurst]

Ilya Zverev wrote:
> I think that would fall into the "fair use" clause.

There is no "fair use" clause in UK copyright law, which is important not
just because OSM is hosted in England & Wales but also because this is
presumably a dataset in part containing materials with an E copyright
holder.

The comparable clause is "fair dealing" and has significantly less scope
than the US "fair use". There may be other aspects of copyright law you
could look at but I wouldn't rely on this one.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Proposed Import of UK Shell Filling Stations

[Andrew Hain]

Is it actually better to use the website as a unique identifier instead of a 
magic number? That way you can check the information online  and tools such as 
Keepright will alert you if the web page disappears.

--
Andrew

From: Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
Sent: 12 May 2017 08:58:06
To: talk-gb
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Proposed Import of UK Shell Filling Stations

On 11 May 2017 at 23:25, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Link to discussion so far on imports@:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-May/004956.html
>
>> My concern would be from where to they get their geocoding.  Most
>> businesses, and particularly chain businesses, tend to use postcode
>> centroids, which are not accurate enough, probably get them from Google.
>
> I voiced the same general concern, but a random sample I checked of the
> (actually rather few) stations that are proposed to be newly added
> seemed to be impeccably placed.

In which case, there is a different concern: have they done their
geo-coding from an acceptable source for use in OSM? If they've e.g.
used Address Base (or a similar product) or got coordinates from a
non-OpenData OS map, then there could be problems. I think we need
more information on the data sources here.

Some other comments:

* If a ref/id is to be used, it should probably be Shell's branch
reference number, not that of the third-party data provider. (These do
exist, and at least in some cases are verifiable on the ground, as
I've found at least one on a pump at a Shell garage up the road from
me.)

* There's an addressing edge-case error on a station near me, which is
located on the Five Ways Roundabout near Mildenhall:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/478902268 . We currently have
(incorrectly) "addr:place=5 Ways Roundabout", but the script is
proposing adding "addr:street=Ways Roundabout" and
"addr:housenumber=5".

* The script shouldn't just add source=Navads to objects it's only
modifying, as that would imply the whole object was sourced from
there. If existing tags and position are retained, then this needs to
be acknowledged somehow. If there's an existing source tag, then
Navads could just be added to the list (I haven't checked to see if
this is the case). If not, then there's more of a challenge. The
script current just adds source=Navads in this case. I think the
importers need to propose a better solution for this.

* As others have said, there needs to be more information about what
happens if there are multiple amenity=fuel objects within 50m, and
also what happens if any existing tags conflict with what the script
would like to add.

* The proposed website tag appears to point to http://www.shell.co.uk
for all the branches. Would it be better pointing to a specific URL
for that branch (assuming this exists)?

* The opening_hours from the import script for
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/248030653 don't match those displayed
on Shell's own website for the same station. One as open till 11pm on
Saturday, the other only 10pm. So is the data accurate / up-to-date?

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker

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