[Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Just to let everyone know that I've been on the phone with the relevant officials at DCLG to discuss the licence for this data. They are already aware of OSM, are keen to get the licence on the data clarified so it can be reused more widely and are in discussions with OS about this. In the meantime, a better map has been produced using the data: http://www.itoworld.com/map/253 In terms of Green Belt designation, some of the comments on this list have rather misunderstood what it us. Designation as Green Belt is supposed to be permanent - even if exceptional circumstances are found to justify a particular development in Green Belt, that will not necessarily revoke its status in that location. For example, if a house has been built in Green Belt, then the fact it is still Green Belt is likely to mean it is more difficult to obtain permission for a large extension etc. Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport <http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport> <>___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
This afternoon the Daily Telegraph has released Green Belt data for England. Could anyone import this into OSM? If so how might it be rendered? www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/planning/9708387/Interactive-map -Englands-green-belt.html "This map is the first time it has been possible for members of the public to easily see which areas are green belt land, and which are not. The Department for Communities and Local Government released the data for the 2011 green belt to the Telegraph, and it is being made available here to view, explore, share and download. Previously the data has only been available at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds from a third party, despite the location of green belt land being identified by councils using taxpayer money. Expert users may also download a copy of the green belt map <http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2012/GreenBeltMap/2011%20G reen%20belt%20boundaries.zip> (29MB ZIP file) for use in geographic information systems (GIS)." OSM already has many other forms of environmental data so it would be great if this could be included. Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport <http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport> <>___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Cycling, the law and traffic signs
I think the confusion here relates to a failure to differentiate criminal law - in this case failing to comply with a traffic sign - and civil law - trespass - in this case not being within the class(es) of users permitted on a particular section of highway. It's not a criminal offence to cycle on a footpath (as opposed to a footway along the side of a road) but there can still be a bicycle=no tag. Similarly with a cycle (only) track there could be a foot=no even if someone walking there would not be committing a crime as they could still be technically trespassing, which might be relevant if there was a collision between them and someone cycling. Off the top of my head the no pedestrian sign is simply signifying another restriction (such as the prohibiting being a pedestrian on a motorway unless walking from a broken down vehicle) since there's no equivalent provision to section 36 of the Road Traffic Act requiring compliance with traffic signs for anyone other than those driving or propelling a vehicle. Ralph <>___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Defra consults on improving recording of rights of way
Hope this is of interest to someone on here but the Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs is consulting the public from today until 6 August about rights of way. As you can see from the consultations questions below, there's a big opportunity to ensure recording of lost or amended rights of way meets the following requirements: (1) A website whose URL is stable, ideally a single one rather than lots of individual sites; (2) The details being published as a data API rather than PDFs or other horrid formats, and (3) The location as either lat/lon or preferably even GeoJSON, and (4) Confirmation that the data is open data under the Open Government License, without having Ordnance Survey derivative data rights. (thanks to Martin of Cyclestreets for these) http://www.defra.gov.uk/consult/2012/05/14/improve-rights-of-way/ Question 5. Do you think that more use could be made of electronic communications, for example, to make definitive map modification order applications online and to serve notice of rights of way orders? "Consideration should be given to the data management systems needed to support administration of the definitive map and statement". (Proposal 28). Whilst Defra is willing to support the process, we believe that the development of data management systems is best undertaken by practitioners. We would welcome views on what issues need tackling and how best to approach the development of solutions. Question 15. What aspects of data management systems for recording public rights of way need to be tackled? Question 16. What are the key outcomes that need to be achieved in terms of data management systems? ... Question 18. Do you think that more use could be made of electronic communications for public path orders, in similar ways to those suggested for definitive map modification orders in Question 5? I'm happy to pass on any conclusions from this list onto other NGOs who are likely to be responding to this consultation in detail but I don't think there will be another opportunity like this for decades. Ralph <>___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Ensuring ground-breaking Welsh Active Travel Bill promotes open data & mapping
Yesterday the Welsh Government published a consultation on a ground-breaking Active Travel Bill. http://wales.gov.uk/consultations/transport/activetravelbill/?lang=enThe White Paper sets out proposals to require Local Authorities in Wales to: * identify and map the network of routes within their areas that are safe and appropriate for walking and cycling; * identify and map the enhancements that would be required to create a fully integrated network for walking and cycling and develop a prioritised list of schemes to deliver the network; There's surely a huge opportunity to integrate this with OSM and make the mapping of current and proposed routes fit for the 21st century rather than simply repeating the methods of 20th century definitive maps? In relation to the first bullet point, would OSM need new tags to record suitability of ways for walking and cycling? For example, grading a route based on level of Bikeability training needed to cycle along it? That wouldn't necessarily cover crossings or things like making right turns and there's nothing I'm aware of that's similar for walking - TfL does have a level of service methodology but it's too detailed and complicated. If there was good coverage of things like speed limits on OSM then perhaps some spatial analysis tools could be used to combine different sources of data such as motor traffic flows, KSI and community feelings of traffic intimidation to help to provide some sort of objective justification. The second proposed map could be more difficult as the routes would initially be indicative or speculative rather than in any way approved, such as the route of HS2 is now. Would this need to be a fork of OSM, for example to enable a local authority to control the proposals and produce a definitive enhancement map every few years rather than having it being continuously changed? Are there any tools for doing this as it's something I'd like to promote as part of neighbourhood planning, since it could help enable communities earmark a share of Community Infrastructure Levy or New Homes Bonus for things like new walking and cycle paths or community facilities. Given the continuing discussions about Rights of Ways on this list, you may also be interested that the consultation also covers changing Welsh definitions of RoWs so that they are different to the English ones, though nothing is specifically proposed. Defra is due (or rather has been due for some time) to publish a consultation on fundamental changes to RoWs on this side of Offa's Dyke, so maybe the Welsh are waiting to take the lead from that. Ralph ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] DfT Consultation - Traffic orders: simplifying (& mapping?) the process
DfT has launched a new consultation today on amending requirements placed on traffic authorities in England when they propose and make temporary and permanent traffic orders (TOs): www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-06/ Traffic Orders cover things like (non-national) speed limits, parking restrictions, restricted turns/access etc. There are lots of potential advantages of digitising this data and making it available to third parties, whether reducing the need for signage clutter or the risk of drivers going round in circles looking for loading bays. I'm trying to highlight the link between this and the 'Satnav summit' being held by the DfT in March. Quick summary: '4.20 Instead [of using local newspapers], authorities would be under a general duty to publicise their orders in whatever they consider to be the most appropriate way. We propose to supplement this general duty with some non-statutory guidance setting out options available for publicising TOs, and identifying where each method would be appropriate. This would also encourage the use of innovative communication channels which already exist, and those which may evolve in the future. 4.21 We anticipate that traffic authorities will welcome the recommendation to use on-line publicity for their TOs. We would see this being used as a way of conveying the full details of the TO, which could be 'sign-posted' from other sources. With that in mind, we will propose a format for on-line advertising of TOs alongside the guidance with the intention of increasing the consistency of how TOs are advertised on-line.' Having been a member of the DfT's Traffic Signs Policy Review, which led to this consultation, I'm meeting officials on Thursday morning (Feb 2nd) for a discussion and would be interested in any views how new guidance and a new format could best fit with open data principles. Peter Miller has already suggested use of principles from XML schemas: http://interim.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/govtalk/schemasstandards/xmlschemas/ developerguide/e-government_schema_guidelines_for_xml.aspx http://interim.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/govtalk/schemasstandards/x mlschemas/developerguide/e-government_schema_guidelines_for_xml.aspx> http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.cabinetoffice.gov .uk/govtalk/schemasstandards.aspx I'm also interested how this could be made to work with new civil society tools, such as the Cyclescape project. So sorry for the short notice but any ideas on this list over the next few days would be most welcome. Otherwise you have until late April to respond to the consultation. thanks Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England 128 Southwark Street, London SE1 0SW www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport <http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport> <>___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Reclassification of English highway network consultation
Consultation was launched last week about giving local authorities scope to reclassify non-trunk roads. Given that local authorities have a statutory deadline of the end of March to finish off their Local Transport Plans, which set out their policy for up to 20 years, some might suggest this is not the best time for this consultation. Although chapter 4 about reclassification is interesting, chapter 5 on data may perhaps be of greatest interest to this list. The document is at: www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2011-02/roadsnetworkconsultation.pdf I'm raising this here to find out: - what the implications might be for OSM, e.g. OSM could be much quicker at updating the information than other maps like google or OS, so it could lead to more web traffic - what the OSM perspective is, in case this is useful for CPRE's consultation response One of the consultation questions is 'Do these reporting arrangements ensure that all interest parties will receive update information where required?' I'd say no and think the proposed local authority notification form for changing route should be published on DfT site in an open format, rather than just being sent to OS? But what format could the data be in? Road Classification more generally http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway The classification of UK roads on OSM very much follows official designations, whereas in other countries it takes more account of what's on the ground. Part of the DfT's justification for these proposals is to enable local authorities to change highway designations so that they reflect the type of road and its use better. Road classification is something CPRE has long had an interest in, having secured a (not particularly effective) amendment to the Transport Act 2000 in relation to rural road hierarchies. By way of background, I've been involved in the DfT's Traffic Signs Policy Review and have been trying to rekindle this agenda: www.cpre.org.uk/filegrab/traffic-signs-policy-and-speed-limit-signage.pd f?ref=3968 The main difference in rendering between OSM and OS seems to be that the latter tends to show minor roads in yellow (with a narrower version for sub 4m width), then other roads etc. as white, while OSM makes a distinction between classified and unclassified. I'm not sure where the suggestion in key:highway that the presence of centre line (median) markings determines whether a road is classified or not: I don't think it's correct. I think differentiating on width would be more useful for OSM in the UK in future. In relation to how to tag Home Zones and Quiet Lanes (exert from Andy's email on this at end), in the UK they are merely a designation (e.g. signs going up as well as a peculiar designation order) whereas in other countries Home Zones are a separate classification of the official road hierarchy. But this is a really technical legal point: would it not be better to do just the same as other countries? Other OSM issues - Does OSM tag Primary Destinations for the Primary Route Network? This could be useful for giving greater priority to displaying text for such tags on lower zoom levels. Similarly for destinations used in cycle network signage etc. - Do any Satnav providers use OSM data or is this likely in the future? E.g. if Peter Miller's proposal for subjective data to be gathered in some way? Ralph -- Wed Jan 26 18:02:34 GMT 2011 > You can see the sign by rule 218 of > the Highway Code, although some pre-2006 schemes used a different sign: > www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069858 > So there should be a 'quiet_lane' value for highway, just as there is > 'living_street'. > Wouldn't that arguably be a different tag to "highway"? From memory I think that I've seen exactly one of these (Moor Lane, Youlgreave; way 37522804). Presumably that's still "highway=unclassified" after someone's stuck some "quiet lane" signs up? Cheers, Andy Take a day out in the countryside: Enjoy discounted entry to over 200 countryside attractions when you become a member http://www.cpre.org.uk/support/joinus This email is confidential and may also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email and delete this message from your system.Views expressed in this message are those of the sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of CPRE. This email and its attachments have been virus checked by Sophos Anti-Virus. No virus is believed to be resident but it is your responsibility to satisfy yourself that your systems will not be harmed by any of its contents. The Campaign to Protect Rural England. Registered in England No.4302973. Registered Office 128 Southwark Street, L
Re: [Talk-GB] Quiet lanes and "one car per minute"
In terms of existing traffic count data, the problem is that generally (and indeed as is the case in Oxfordshire) it tends to be available only for A and B roads rather than many unclassified (and C) roads. The problem with marking lightly trafficked roads as 'quiet lanes' on OSM is that this is actually a formal legal designation, the rural equivalent of a home zone. I'm not aware of any other country other than the UK that has anything similar. You can see the sign by rule 218 of the Highway Code, although some pre-2006 schemes used a different sign: www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069858 So there should be a 'quiet_lane' value for highway, just as there is 'living_street'. I agree that having some data on whether country lanes are havens of tranquillity or rat runs is really useful for route planning and leisure purposes, or indeed trying to protect them from further motor traffic increases. That's why CPRE has been working on this issue: www.cpre.org.uk/filegrab/quiet-lanes.pdf?ref=1888 Unfortunately motor traffic has been growing faster on these roads than any other type and this has had a big impact in many rural areas: www.cpre.org.uk/filegrab/increases-in-motor-traffic-levels-1993-20071.pd f?ref=3821 So is there a simple way to record when the traffic data was gathered (as opposed to when it was added to OSM)? At a risk of getting too complex, in some areas there's a big difference in motor traffic levels at the weekend: in the City of London they are very low, around rural pubs and honey pot sites they can be high, even if the weekly average is low. Perhaps best just to have something simple like a 'lightly_trafficked' tag for quiet urban streets as well as country lanes? Ralph PS I've had some great cycling on twisty Cornish lanes, just got to make sure one's brakes are functioning perfectly and you know which bank to jump on if someone else comes round the corner too quickly... -- Craig Loftus craigloftus+osm at googlemail.com Tue Jan 25 16:37:59 GMT 2011 Something reminded me of this thread and my suggestion that data for some roads may already be collected. This seems to be true of Oxfordshire and it is even published. The counts are collected by automatic and manual means by the Transport Monitoring team of Oxfordshire County Council. http://bit.ly/hf7rI0 The descriptions of the sections of road covered leave a lot to be desired but it is useful data none the less. There isn't a mention of license for reuse so I've just sent off an inquiry. Cheers, Craig On 20 January 2011 23:05, ael wrote: > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 01:58:43PM +, Craig Loftus wrote: > > I like the idea. And although I like the simplicity, I think it might be > > worth somehow taking account for seasonable variability. There a number > of > > Agreed. In Cornwall, for example, roads that are very quiet for most of > the year become insanely busy during the tourist season. Mind you the > high banks and restricted views make cycling on those narrow twisty roads > something not to be undertaken lightly in any season. > > Adrian > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > Take a day out in the countryside: Enjoy discounted entry to over 200 countryside attractions when you become a member http://www.cpre.org.uk/support/joinus This email is confidential and may also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email and delete this message from your system.Views expressed in this message are those of the sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of CPRE. This email and its attachments have been virus checked by Sophos Anti-Virus. No virus is believed to be resident but it is your responsibility to satisfy yourself that your systems will not be harmed by any of its contents. The Campaign to Protect Rural England. Registered in England No.4302973. Registered Office 128 Southwark Street, London, SE1 0SW. CPRE is a registered charity (Reg. No. 1089685) Telephone: 020 7981 2800. Fax: 020 7981 2899. Email: i...@cpre.org.uk Web: http://www.cpre.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] CPRE's Transport Toolkit, the Localism agenda & OSM
Hey I'm emailing to introduce myself, the Campaign to Protect Rural England's (CPRE) Transport Toolkit project (a key part of which is to increase coverage and use of OSM derived data in rural communities) and implications/opportunities of the Localism Bill for OSM. I have already been in contact with some individuals on this list and am grateful for their assistance. There are a number of issues I wanted to post on, so hope you don't mind this lengthy introduction to explain some context. Transport Toolkit Due to be launched this summer, the Toolkit will be sent out to the third of parish councils that are members of CPRE as well as promoted widely on-line to environmental and community groups. It was highlighted in last week's Local Transport White Paper (LTWP) as an example of the Big Society in action. It is divided into three parts - Planning Neighbourhood Transport, Influencing Travel Behaviour and Improving Infrastructure & Services - each containing individual topics like creating a Village Travel Plan, getting your area covered fully on OSM, producing a local bus or cycle map and setting up electric bike pools or car clubs. Research into 'Smarter Choices' (marketing to promote sustainable travel) has shown that simple information like personalised maps and timetables can be really effective in changing behaviour. But local government cuts are being focused on spending such as this that is not seen as essential as repairing potholes so programmes are under threat across the country. That said many of the maps made by local authorities left a lot to be desired, not least as they tended to use a different key to each other. So mapping is a key part of the Toolkit. While web based info is great, particularly for planners like cyclestreets, I'm interested in new renderings for OSM data to make producing legible, paper based versions of maps easy too that can be put up on village notice boards, in pub car parks etc. Action: If anyone can help with working with some pilot communities to improve OSM coverage of their areas (specifically in Hampshire) that we can use as a case study, or help design renderings to make a more easy-to-print version of OSM focusing on walking, cycling or public transport, please contact me off-list Localism Bill More at: www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/decentralisation/localismbill/ Derived from the Tory 'Open Source Planning' Green Paper, the Localism Bill is vast. The main point of interest is the proposal for neighbourhood plans to be the foundation of a 'rebooted' (not sure if all the IT metaphors are always appropriate here!) planning system. To be able to plan well, you need information and a key part of spatial planning is mapping. I think there's a huge opportunity for OSM to provide a vital tool for communities to do their own neighbourhood plans, backed up with neighbourhood mapping. One problem could be adding planning permission/planning use classes as most of the data is OS derived, I think. Another is how to allow communities to start with OSM and map out how they would like their community to look in the future...without putting those changes into OSM. It's one thing to mark where you think cycle parking should go on a new layer, another to plan new housing, parks etc. Any ideas how this could work? Certainly in terms of the Toolkit, I see OSM as being a vital aid to plan things like new cycle or community transport routes. Other possibly relevant parts of the Bill to OSM are a general power of competence for local authorities and a 'community right to challenge' authorities to let community groups bid for services. The former could encourage authorities to work with groups to improve OSM coverage. The latter could allow OSM groups to bid to run council's GIS departments. But perhaps that's for the longer term / a discussion down the pub... Action: Perhaps this is something for general discussion? Sorry for the long email and thanks for bearing with me! Best wishes -- Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner Campaign to Protect Rural England 128 Southwark Street, London SE1 0SW www.cpre.org.uk/campaigns/transport Take a day out in the countryside: Enjoy discounted entry to over 200 countryside attractions when you become a member http://www.cpre.org.uk/support/joinus This email is confidential and may also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email and delete this message from your system.Views expressed in this message are those of the sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of CPRE. This email and its attachmen
