Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-03 Thread Lester Caine 
On 03/04/15 14:38, pmailkeey . wrote:
> OSM's actually global, Brian.
And other countries handle their area of the map with a lot more active
support. All we are talking about here is UK data on the UK list.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-03 Thread pmailkeey . 
On 3 April 2015 at 09:02, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Couldn't agree more with Jerry's post which shows a pragmatic and real
> world view (also Richard F's elsewhere). To me what this highlights is the
> need for a more organised and diplomatic approach to promoting OSM in the
> UK. Also the need for a whole host of internal housekeeping tasks.
>
> Regrds
>
> Brian
>

OSM's actually global, Brian.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-03 Thread Brian Prangle 
Couldn't agree more with Jerry's post which shows a pragmatic and real
world view (also Richard F's elsewhere). To me what this highlights is the
need for a more organised and diplomatic approach to promoting OSM in the
UK. Also the need for a whole host of internal housekeeping tasks.

Regrds

Brian

On 2 April 2015 at 19:04, SK53  wrote:

> It's worth considering the following;
>
>- CRT are using their own (high quality, high consistency) data. No
>need for OSM data.
>- OSM detail is highly variable, and parts of CRT's system might not
>be mapped at an appropriate level of detail or accuracy.
>- OSM tagging etc. is prone to change which would involve extra
>expense in tweaking the base cartography rules (see tagging discussion on
>lock_gates for an example which would affect canal cartography). (See also
>the discussion of pipeline tagging which directly affected client work of
>someone on this list).
>- OSM does not have the funds or people to offer either financial
>support or equivalent staff involvement which I imagine the partnership
>with Google involves.
>- OSM does not have the means to provide services and service delivery
>on knowable timescales and costs (for instance doing Streetview for
>towpaths.
>- There is no OSM technology which a) matches GSVs capabilities; or b)
>can capture 360 degree panorama images quickly.
>- Integration of CRTs assets into a widely used search engine and
>familiar software (GMaps, GSV) is likely to bring tangible benefits to CRT
>far faster than using OSM. CRT needs to find new sources of funding, so
>this is a non-trivial issue.
>
> Lamenting that CRT are not using OSM fails to recognise that OSM are not a
> service provider. Equally, OSM data is not consistent enough to provide a
> base layer for this kind of work. And finally, I imagine, this is done to
> fairly fixed timescales: again something which OSM introduces
> imponderables, aka unknowable risk factors.
>
> Some of these things can be changed, but others represent things which
> just are not part of OSM and are unlikely to be so in the foreseeable
> future.
>
> I'm proud that we can be more accurate and up-to-date than Google Maps and
> the Ordnance Survey, but I dont make the mistake of thinking that we are a
> pure substitution play.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 2 April 2015 at 17:01, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Google have the CRT helping them do streetview along the tow paths so,
>> yes, a partnership exists.
>>
>> There is little point getting defensive, the better question to ask would
>> be "what does OpenStreetMap have to do so that next time you use our data
>> rather than Google's?"
>>
>> RichardF may have some insight into that but I'd understand if he'd
>> rather not share his views right now.
>>
>> Rob
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Lester Caine 
On 02/04/15 21:36, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> The principal content on the new CRT website maps is CRT's own GIS data:
> canal centrelines, locks, bridges and so on. It would be terrific to have
> this available for inclusion into OSM, particularly bridge names (where
> we're very weak), and I'm confident this will happen in due course.

Having access to this material would be great, and fits in parallel with
the railways mapping. I presume that hidden under the hood might also be
the original construction dates? Just been helping in that area on
railway development in the earky 1900's ...

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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread pmailkeey . 
On 2 April 2015 at 21:36, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> I'm on the other side of the world at the moment so this is only a brief
> sketchy reply.


"The other side of the world" - how vague - give us a lat/long !! ;)

My dad died in 1999 - so this is going to be a brief response. Equally
'valid'.


> My background in this is that I'm doing a little freelance
> work for CRT helping them improve their website maps.
>
> The principal content on the new CRT website maps is CRT's own GIS data:
> canal centrelines, locks, bridges and so on. It would be terrific to have
> this available for inclusion into OSM, particularly bridge names (where
> we're very weak), and I'm confident this will happen in due course.
>

I added a bridge name today and included the bridge number !



I think that's an entirely understandable decision on CRT's part, and if it
brings more visitors to the canals then I'm all for it - especially as
precedent (think cycling) suggests that dedicated boaters and towpath
walkers will then end up using apps and sites powered by OSM data. Of
course, before that happens we'll need to get our own house in order and
stop trying to reinvent lock-gate tagging for the 500th time in 10 years
sigh.

I'm thinking cycling. I'm thinking where's CRT's cycling map ? I'm looking
at OSM Brum and am noting all the canals I've cycled on that aren't
labelled as cycle routes.

It's not the tagging but the rendering that's the issue. A circle is not
very representative of a lock gate. 500 attempts over 10 years is no
surprise, is it. 'Icons' is just another issue on the list. Having said
that, I do love the new tree icon. It's encouraged me to plant trees all
over the place - makes the map look pretty.


Could I also perhaps suggest that some of the more rabid voices on this list
are not exactly brilliant ambassadors for OSM, and sometimes a more
considered approach would gain OSM more friends (hello, Mr pmailkeey).

Without doubt, far less damaging than finding 'location' in the 'wrong
place' and with the attitude I find here, I'm much less likely now to
correct, instead, I just delete.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Richard Fairhurst 
I'm on the other side of the world at the moment so this is only a brief
sketchy reply. My background in this is that I'm doing a little freelance
work for CRT helping them improve their website maps. I've been working on
canal maps in one form or another for 15+ years, long before OSM was
founded. Indeed, building the maps on a predecessor of the CRT website
(waterscape.com) was how I learned ActionScript, so you can blame Potlatch
on that. Obviously you know my OSM background; some of you will know my
general opinion of Google and others can probably guess. ;)

The principal content on the new CRT website maps is CRT's own GIS data:
canal centrelines, locks, bridges and so on. It would be terrific to have
this available for inclusion into OSM, particularly bridge names (where
we're very weak), and I'm confident this will happen in due course.

This is rendered using the OSM stack - Mapnik, PostGIS, mod_tile and
renderd.

Google Maps are used as a discreet faded-out background, more for
orientation than for anything else. Obviously I would like OSM to be used
for this. However, my understanding is that CRT has a "corporate
partnership" with Google, so, for example, Google sends its StreetView
backpackers along the canals. Showcasing the canals on the biggest website
in the world, plus the attendant press coverage, is terrific publicity for a
young charity seeking to get more visitors to the canals, and not something
they can pass up. 

I think that's an entirely understandable decision on CRT's part, and if it
brings more visitors to the canals then I'm all for it - especially as
precedent (think cycling) suggests that dedicated boaters and towpath
walkers will then end up using apps and sites powered by OSM data. Of
course, before that happens we'll need to get our own house in order and
stop trying to reinvent lock-gate tagging for the 500th time in 10 years
sigh.

Could I also perhaps suggest that some of the more rabid voices on this list
are not exactly brilliant ambassadors for OSM, and sometimes a more
considered approach would gain OSM more friends (hello, Mr pmailkeey).

cheers
Richard
posting in a personal capacity only, obviously





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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread SK53 
It's worth considering the following;

   - CRT are using their own (high quality, high consistency) data. No need
   for OSM data.
   - OSM detail is highly variable, and parts of CRT's system might not be
   mapped at an appropriate level of detail or accuracy.
   - OSM tagging etc. is prone to change which would involve extra expense
   in tweaking the base cartography rules (see tagging discussion on
   lock_gates for an example which would affect canal cartography). (See also
   the discussion of pipeline tagging which directly affected client work of
   someone on this list).
   - OSM does not have the funds or people to offer either financial
   support or equivalent staff involvement which I imagine the partnership
   with Google involves.
   - OSM does not have the means to provide services and service delivery
   on knowable timescales and costs (for instance doing Streetview for
   towpaths.
   - There is no OSM technology which a) matches GSVs capabilities; or b)
   can capture 360 degree panorama images quickly.
   - Integration of CRTs assets into a widely used search engine and
   familiar software (GMaps, GSV) is likely to bring tangible benefits to CRT
   far faster than using OSM. CRT needs to find new sources of funding, so
   this is a non-trivial issue.

Lamenting that CRT are not using OSM fails to recognise that OSM are not a
service provider. Equally, OSM data is not consistent enough to provide a
base layer for this kind of work. And finally, I imagine, this is done to
fairly fixed timescales: again something which OSM introduces
imponderables, aka unknowable risk factors.

Some of these things can be changed, but others represent things which just
are not part of OSM and are unlikely to be so in the foreseeable future.

I'm proud that we can be more accurate and up-to-date than Google Maps and
the Ordnance Survey, but I dont make the mistake of thinking that we are a
pure substitution play.

Jerry

On 2 April 2015 at 17:01, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Google have the CRT helping them do streetview along the tow paths so,
> yes, a partnership exists.
>
> There is little point getting defensive, the better question to ask would
> be "what does OpenStreetMap have to do so that next time you use our data
> rather than Google's?"
>
> RichardF may have some insight into that but I'd understand if he'd rather
> not share his views right now.
>
> Rob
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Dave F. 

Hardly defensive.If anything a mild form of the opposite.

I'm trying to sell OSM as a valid alternative /now/, which It is. In 
fact as an ancillary base map it exceeds Google in detail & accuracy. 
Many business locations are based on both vague postcode data & a 
particularly dizzy game of 'pin the tale on the donkey'.


Even KFC have seen the light: kfc.co.uk/find-us/ 
  (for the base layer, they appear to be using 
postcodes to pin their shops)


I've asked if they'll be releasing their SAP database under an open 
license & she's checking.


Dave F.


On 02/04/2015 17:01, Rob Nickerson wrote:


Hi,

Google have the CRT helping them do streetview along the tow paths so, 
yes, a partnership exists.


There is little point getting defensive, the better question to ask 
would be "what does OpenStreetMap have to do so that next time you use 
our data rather than Google's?"


RichardF may have some insight into that but I'd understand if he'd 
rather not share his views right now.


Rob



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[Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Rob Nickerson 
Hi,

Google have the CRT helping them do streetview along the tow paths so, yes,
a partnership exists.

There is little point getting defensive, the better question to ask would
be "what does OpenStreetMap have to do so that next time you use our data
rather than Google's?"

RichardF may have some insight into that but I'd understand if he'd rather
not share his views right now.

Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Dave F. 
Well, she describes it as a 'partnership' so some money could be 
changing hands. Between Google & CRT, not Ms Peckett, obviously.


Dave F.

On 02/04/2015 15:19, jonat...@bigfatfrog67.me wrote:

You'd almost think she's getting a kick back from Google! 😉

Jonathan

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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread jonathan 
You'd almost think she's getting a kick back from Google! 😉






Jonathan

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From: Dave F.
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎2‎ ‎April‎ ‎2015 ‎13‎:‎45
To: Lester Caine, talk-gb@openstreetmap.org





On 02/04/2015 12:41, Lester Caine wrote:
> On 02/04/15 12:28, Dave F. wrote:
>> Ah, might as well forget it...
>>
>> Just read Richard F's blog on the CRT website. V. disappointing.
>>
>> https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/new-maps-for-a-new-website
> It is much better to look at this as a positive rather than a negative!
> What *IS* needed is a successful way of using third party data sets
> rather than continually merging now quite complex data sets into the one
> unmanageable whole. I would hope to see the information available as an
> overlay to osm in the same way it overlays google.

As you can see. it's not just me who want CRT to use OSM:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/thanks-for-the-map-feedback

Note paragraph: "We’re very fortunate to have Google as one of our 
partners, so we won’t be moving away from Google as the base layer for 
the map."

My tweets to Victoria Peckett, CRT's 'digital manager':

I'm disappointed by your decision not to use OSM, especially since it 
has more data, detail & accuracy. When things change, they're updated 
quicker in OSM (especially pubs!). Please reconsider your decision to 
make CRT maps even better.

Genuinely surprised you think Google to be better quality than OSM (sent 
her comparative links)

Her reply:
Thx for feedback. Understand not everyone will prefer Google, but is 
very widely used format & one many people familiar with

Me: It's a shame a collaborative/volunteer org. like the CRT can't 
embrace a similar volunteer/crowd sourced project. OSM already contains 
much canal & ancillary data. Does Google? (which, incidentally, owns any 
data you freely enter into it)

Hi Dave. Understand your prefer OSM but we believe our styling over 
Google base layer does offer good quality experience & data..

Me: As a "digital manager" it's a shame you're unaware of OSM's 
rendering abilities, even better than Google. Annoyed with @richardf

I have to say, considering the response (I found "one many people 
familiar with" especially irritating) I'm struggling to see the positive.

Richard F:
Is it planned to release the SAP database under an open license?

Cheers
Dave F.


>   Then perhaps all the
> material that is simply missing or incorrect on google can be replaced
> with much more accurate local views :) Certainly the paths and access to
> the navigable sections of canals and rivers around here are currently
> totally blank on the google version.
>


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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Dave F. 

On 02/04/2015 12:41, Lester Caine wrote:

On 02/04/15 12:28, Dave F. wrote:

Ah, might as well forget it...

Just read Richard F's blog on the CRT website. V. disappointing.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/new-maps-for-a-new-website

It is much better to look at this as a positive rather than a negative!
What *IS* needed is a successful way of using third party data sets
rather than continually merging now quite complex data sets into the one
unmanageable whole. I would hope to see the information available as an
overlay to osm in the same way it overlays google.


As you can see. it's not just me who want CRT to use OSM:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/thanks-for-the-map-feedback

Note paragraph: "We’re very fortunate to have Google as one of our 
partners, so we won’t be moving away from Google as the base layer for 
the map."


My tweets to Victoria Peckett, CRT's 'digital manager':

I'm disappointed by your decision not to use OSM, especially since it 
has more data, detail & accuracy. When things change, they're updated 
quicker in OSM (especially pubs!). Please reconsider your decision to 
make CRT maps even better.


Genuinely surprised you think Google to be better quality than OSM (sent 
her comparative links)


Her reply:
Thx for feedback. Understand not everyone will prefer Google, but is 
very widely used format & one many people familiar with


Me: It's a shame a collaborative/volunteer org. like the CRT can't 
embrace a similar volunteer/crowd sourced project. OSM already contains 
much canal & ancillary data. Does Google? (which, incidentally, owns any 
data you freely enter into it)


Hi Dave. Understand your prefer OSM but we believe our styling over 
Google base layer does offer good quality experience & data..


Me: As a "digital manager" it's a shame you're unaware of OSM's 
rendering abilities, even better than Google. Annoyed with @richardf


I have to say, considering the response (I found "one many people 
familiar with" especially irritating) I'm struggling to see the positive.


Richard F:
Is it planned to release the SAP database under an open license?

Cheers
Dave F.



  Then perhaps all the
material that is simply missing or incorrect on google can be replaced
with much more accurate local views :) Certainly the paths and access to
the navigable sections of canals and rivers around here are currently
totally blank on the google version.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread pmailkeey . 
Dave, I'm not giving up !

On 2 April 2015 at 12:41, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 02/04/15 12:28, Dave F. wrote:
> > Ah, might as well forget it...
> >
> > Just read Richard F's blog on the CRT website. V. disappointing.
> >
> >
> https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/new-maps-for-a-new-website
>
> It is much better to look at this as a positive rather than a negative!
> What *IS* needed is a successful way of using third party data sets
> rather than continually merging now quite complex data sets into the one
> unmanageable whole. I would hope to see the information available as an
> overlay to osm in the same way it overlays google. Then perhaps all the
> material that is simply missing or incorrect on google can be replaced
> with much more accurate local views :) Certainly the paths and access to
> the navigable sections of canals and rivers around here are currently
> totally blank on the google version.
>
>

I think it'd help if we can show them the way. OSM doesn't show water flow
in canals (I've tried!) and the lock gate(s) icon needs fixing - to a <
going against the flow. I think much of the data on their map is already on
OSM - needs checking though. I also note they don't offer a cycle map -
which we'll obviously show. Stick with that - we'll get the cycling
fraternity pressing for them to use OSM !

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Lester Caine 
On 02/04/15 12:28, Dave F. wrote:
> Ah, might as well forget it...
> 
> Just read Richard F's blog on the CRT website. V. disappointing.
> 
> https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/new-maps-for-a-new-website

It is much better to look at this as a positive rather than a negative!
What *IS* needed is a successful way of using third party data sets
rather than continually merging now quite complex data sets into the one
unmanageable whole. I would hope to see the information available as an
overlay to osm in the same way it overlays google. Then perhaps all the
material that is simply missing or incorrect on google can be replaced
with much more accurate local views :) Certainly the paths and access to
the navigable sections of canals and rivers around here are currently
totally blank on the google version.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-02 Thread Dave F. 

Ah, might as well forget it...

Just read Richard F's blog on the CRT website. V. disappointing.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/new-maps-for-a-new-website

Dave F.

On 01/04/2015 18:46, Dave F. wrote:

Hi All

The Canal & River Trust are conducting a survey of the appearance of 
the latest version of their maps:


https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/crtlabs/map.html

Considering one of the suggestions was to utilise OSM, the response is 
disappointing:


https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/thanks-for-the-map-feedback 



This is one of a few charities/community based organisations I've 
noticed that's jumped into bed with a money spinning conglomerate 
rather than a fellow collaborative/crowd sourced organisation.


Is there anybody here who has sway with the CRT who could persuade 
them to change their minds? (Richard F.?)


Cheers
Dave F.

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[Talk-GB] Canal & River Trust maps

2015-04-01 Thread Dave F. 

Hi All

The Canal & River Trust are conducting a survey of the appearance of the 
latest version of their maps:


https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/crtlabs/map.html

Considering one of the suggestions was to utilise OSM, the response is 
disappointing:


https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blog/odette-myall/thanks-for-the-map-feedback

This is one of a few charities/community based organisations I've 
noticed that's jumped into bed with a money spinning conglomerate rather 
than a fellow collaborative/crowd sourced organisation.


Is there anybody here who has sway with the CRT who could persuade them 
to change their minds? (Richard F.?)


Cheers
Dave F.

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