Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
p.s. just noticed there is indeed a tiny Donation link on the bottom right corner. Perhaps it needs to be bigger? Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
How do you propose funding such a service? Hi David, When I first found OSM the standard map was up and running, so I assumed that matter had been resolved. It is still currently up and running and displayed on the front page, so I assume it is still resolved? If not, perhaps a Donation button on the corner, as other free-to-use web sites? cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On 18/03/2019 14:03, Martin Wynne wrote: If you suggest to someone that they try OSM instead of Google maps, the standard Carto map is what they arrive at from search engines: How do you propose funding such a service? ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
For many people, the *point* of OSM is that it's a better version of Google maps. That's certainly my reason for adding stuff to OSM. If it doesn't appear on the "standard map" I'm not much inclined to spend hours recording it and mapping it. If there is a way I can legitimately change the tagging to ensure that it does appear on the standard map, I will do it. I use the iD editor, and after uploading you get a "thank you for improving the map" message. It doesn't say "thank you for adding that, but we are not going to bother to show it". If you suggest to someone that they try OSM instead of Google maps, the standard Carto map is what they arrive at from search engines: http://openstreetmap.org It is after all called OpenStreetMAP, not OpenStreetGeographicalDatabase, and I feel sure that the standard map is the way that many users access it, and want it -- a recognisable local MAP. cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On 18/03/2019 13:06, John Aldridge wrote: For many people, the *point* of OSM is that it's a better version of Google maps. If data is not visible on the 'front page' rendering, it might as well not be there. OSM doesn't have a business model that supports that usage. It is not something that they would want to encourage, because there is no way for them to pay for the servers needed to support a general move from Google to OSM. My understanding is that the standard style is primarily as an aid to mappers, and secondarily as a demonstrator to show that it is possible to create reasonable looking maps. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On 16-Mar-19 13:23, SK53 wrote: No, Carto is just one way of viewing OSM data. It has a small number of maintainers and although highly visible does not represent any 'official' view. Yes and no. For many people, the *point* of OSM is that it's a better version of Google maps. If data is not visible on the 'front page' rendering, it might as well not be there. I agree, of course, with the principle of not tagging for a particular renderer. But along with espousing that principle should come an obligation to provide a renderer which does reflect (and hence encourage) what we regard as good tagging practice. Lacking that, people will keep tagging for Carto, and I can't entirely blame them. There should, IMO, be a general purpose UK styled rendering on the front page of https://osmuk.org/ -- Cheers, John ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:55, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote: > Any conclusion on how to tag them now? > > Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? For places in the UK that are actually registered common land, then I'd suggest using designation=common_land to denote that fact, as it's an official designation. (Similarly we can use designation=village_green for areas that are recorded as Village Greens. See https://www.gov.uk/common-land-village-greens for the legal definitions.) Public access can be tagged using access=* tags in the usual way. That just leaves the question of how to tag the physical nature of the land. I'd have thought in most cases one of leisure=park (which can be interpreted quite widely I think, given what's on the Wiki page), leisure=recreation_ground, natural=heath, natural=scrub and natural=meadow would probably be appropriate. Robert. > On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:51 SK53, wrote: >> Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) map >> which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & Irish >> map users. >> >> On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB >> wrote: >>> In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common land >>> (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 -- Robert Whittaker ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
For now, for the commons around Malvern I will add landuse, In most cases landuse=meadow. Ian On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:54, Edward Catmur wrote: > They're going to be retagged anyway to get them to render in the main map, > so I doubt that's a solution. > > Any conclusion on how to tag them now? > > Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:51 SK53, wrote: > >> Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) >> map which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & >> Irish map users. >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB < >> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: >> >>> In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common >>> land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 >>> >>> Ian >>> ___ >>> Talk-GB mailing list >>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
That’s parkland, surely? Sent from my iPhone On 16 Mar 2019, at 14:32, Martin Wynne wrote: >> To me the simplest rule of thumb >> is that a park is fenced, allowing the authorities to control access, while >> a common is unfenced allowing anyone to access it at any time. > > The local municipal park here is unfenced, just a row of low wooden bollards > to prevent vehicle incursions. Access on foot is uncontrolled. > > An interesting conundrum is how to tag a private ornamental park, such as: > > https://goo.gl/maps/2qPQEbJVeZD2 > > I recall reading an article from an OS surveyor saying that he knew one when > he saw one, but neither he nor anyone else had ever been able to put a clear > definition in words. > > It's rather more than a "meadow" isn't it? But hardly a "garden"? > > cheers, > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
To me the simplest rule of thumb is that a park is fenced, allowing the authorities to control access, while a common is unfenced allowing anyone to access it at any time. The local municipal park here is unfenced, just a row of low wooden bollards to prevent vehicle incursions. Access on foot is uncontrolled. An interesting conundrum is how to tag a private ornamental park, such as: https://goo.gl/maps/2qPQEbJVeZD2 I recall reading an article from an OS surveyor saying that he knew one when he saw one, but neither he nor anyone else had ever been able to put a clear definition in words. It's rather more than a "meadow" isn't it? But hardly a "garden"? cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On 16/03/2019 13:23, SK53 wrote: OSM tagging is not analogous to the syntax and semantics of a computer language or API. Whilst there is possibly a valid point about Plain English, OSM tagging is, very much, a computer API, albeit one where the semantics are fuzzy. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
No, Carto is just one way of viewing OSM data. It has a small number of maintainers and although highly visible does not represent any 'official' view. Nor, incidentally, does the OSM wiki. Re-tagging things to make them render on Carto is very poor practice. Use of park would be reprehensible & devalue that tag forcing other data consumers to make changes for their own applications. As I said Andy's map is far more focused on things which are likely to matter to UK mappers, and many of us use it as the map of reference (for instance it shows footpaths and hedgerows at lower zoom levels than the standard style). Can we please, once and for all, cease describing things as "deprecated". OSM tagging is not analogous to the syntax and semantics of a computer language or API. We should strive to use a terminology which is more akin to that spoken by a broader community: "no longer recommended...", "generally replaced by...", "ambiguous, so prefer …". Jerry On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:55, Edward Catmur wrote: > They're going to be retagged anyway to get them to render in the main map, > so I doubt that's a solution. > > Any conclusion on how to tag them now? > > Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:51 SK53, wrote: > >> Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) >> map which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & >> Irish map users. >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB < >> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: >> >>> In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common >>> land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 >>> >>> Ian >>> ___ >>> Talk-GB mailing list >>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
We map what is, not what was. The historical context is interesting but is largely irrelevant for deciding what is and is not a common in current UK context. You're correct to bring up access, though. To me the simplest rule of thumb is that a park is fenced, allowing the authorities to control access, while a common is unfenced allowing anyone to access it at any time. On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 13:05 David Woolley, wrote: > On 16/03/2019 12:54, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote: > > Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? > > I think any use of common for such a feature fails to understand the > historical and political context of commons (one still referenced by the > Creative Commons licenses). > > "Common" was about ownership rather than about being a type of landuse. > > Incidentally, most "public" parks actually have permissive access, not > public access. I'm not sure if a real common would have public access, > or whether it would be restricted to the local community. (Creative > Commons generalisation to intellectual property assumes public access.) > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
On 16/03/2019 12:54, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote: Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? I think any use of common for such a feature fails to understand the historical and political context of commons (one still referenced by the Creative Commons licenses). "Common" was about ownership rather than about being a type of landuse. Incidentally, most "public" parks actually have permissive access, not public access. I'm not sure if a real common would have public access, or whether it would be restricted to the local community. (Creative Commons generalisation to intellectual property assumes public access.) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
And yes, I'm aware that tagging for the renderer is wrong, and that a common isn't a park. But by making this change carto have effectively redefined the common tag as deprecated. On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:54 Edward Catmur, wrote: > They're going to be retagged anyway to get them to render in the main map, > so I doubt that's a solution. > > Any conclusion on how to tag them now? > > Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:51 SK53, wrote: > >> Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) >> map which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & >> Irish map users. >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB < >> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: >> >>> In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common >>> land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 >>> >>> Ian >>> ___ >>> Talk-GB mailing list >>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
They're going to be retagged anyway to get them to render in the main map, so I doubt that's a solution. Any conclusion on how to tag them now? Perhaps leisure=park, park=common? On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:51 SK53, wrote: > Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) map > which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & Irish > map users. > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB < > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >> In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common >> land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 >> >> Ian >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
Link to tagging thread: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/043380.html On Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 12:46 Dave F via Talk-GB, wrote: > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/4df96c4e4927c > > Plus a discussion in Tagging 05/03 > > Unsure if this is a step forward. If it's being "misused", the common tags > should be amended to accurately represent the areas, not deprecate the > render. Seems like the tail wagging the dog, again. > > DaveF > > On 16/03/2019 12:31, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB wrote: > > In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common land > (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 > > Ian > > > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing > listTalk-GB@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
Yup, it's gone. I think the standard thing is use Andy's (SomeoneElse) map which is likely to retain features of value & relevance to British & Irish map users. On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 at 12:35, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB < talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common > land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 > > Ian > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/4df96c4e4927c Plus a discussion in Tagging 05/03 Unsure if this is a step forward. If it's being "misused", the common tags should be amended to accurately represent the areas, not deprecate the render. Seems like the tail wagging the dog, again. DaveF On 16/03/2019 12:31, Ian Caldwell via Talk-GB wrote: In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 Ian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Common Land has stopped rendering
In the last day or two the standard renderer as stop rendering common land (leisure=common) see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311973831 Ian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
