Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 22 March 2017 at 09:24, Gregory wrote: > Besides notification, shall we now focus on actual concerns/comments on the > imports taking place? Please bear in mind that contacting the mailing lists isn't just for the purposes of "notification", but is also supposed to be a mechanism by which the importers seek guidance and outside expertise. Most people running an import have far less experience in doing so than the collective wisdom of the imports mailing list, for example. Or an expert in imports will have less experience in tagging tree species than the collective wisdom of the talk-gb mailing list, to give another example. So let's not make the false step of seeing this part of the guidelines as just some "tick-box notification". I would encourage that, rather than putting the burden on outsiders to chip in with their opinions here, that instead the people who are actually doing and promoting these imports are the ones to actively follow the import guidelines, and actively seek out the guidance and outside expertise themselves. Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
I've been roughly following this thread, and feel I should add some balance. *As a director of OpenStreetMap UK,* If you have a point/discussion to make on that organisation or the collective of OSMers in the UK, please make another thread for it. Someone said it's not a good way to treat a respected/dedicated member of the community, and that may be right, in the same way some comments haven't been a good way to treat a new member of the community who hasn't any knowledge of import attitudes. *As an individual,* I've not been to West Midlands pub meetups but had heard on some list about the NaPTAN update-import. I feel that a well-accepted import needs slightly-less process followed before an update, but it's still good to do some. As for the tree import, I've only heard in passing in chats. It would be important for that to go through the full import guidelines. Neil, thanks for offering a next steps suggestion to keep this moving on.., > A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the safest way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports. I'm sure Brian understands the importance of keeping the community aware. It's difficult because it's such a big community with so many mediums. People who dislike the mailing lists are often good at informing the other mediums, but that's no reason for mailing lists to be completely ignored, especially as they can form a more permanent record of announcements. The import mailing list tends to have less of the negative comments/arguments people have come to associate with OSM mailing lists. I usually glance over it very briefly as most imports don't geographically-concern or subject-interest me. Besides notification, shall we now focus on actual concerns/comments on the imports taking place? >From the North East, Gregory. On 21 March 2017 at 22:01, Neil Matthews wrote: > On 21/03/2017 11:20, Andy Allan wrote (more than this): > > I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to >> ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already". >> >> Thanks, >> Andy >> > > My take from previous mails is that all you need to do to import data now > is go to the pub and discuss it with local regularly active mappers. > For some values of local/regular/active (possibly even at a county-wide > level) this just might involve me mumbling to myself in the corner of my > local -- and bingo I've met the requirements. > > I think it's a bad precedent to set. > > A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and > some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the safest > way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports. > > Cheers, > Neil > > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 21/03/2017 11:20, Andy Allan wrote (more than this): I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already". Thanks, Andy My take from previous mails is that all you need to do to import data now is go to the pub and discuss it with local regularly active mappers. For some values of local/regular/active (possibly even at a county-wide level) this just might involve me mumbling to myself in the corner of my local -- and bingo I've met the requirements. I think it's a bad precedent to set. A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the safest way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports. Cheers, Neil ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 20 March 2017 at 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote: > I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't > know about them. I have emails from Brian discussing imports as far back as 2009. I find it unlikely that with 8 years of experience he could be completely unaware of the import guidelines. > Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a > worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have > time to think with a fresh mind. I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already". Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Hi, Am 20.03.2017 um 15:46 schrieb Dan S: I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and Richard Fairhurst. total agree. walter ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
2017-03-20 12:17 GMT+00:00 Andy Allan : > On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't >> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane >> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a >> locally supported project. > > We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and > battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have > chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could > have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever > you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been > reached. > > However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things > you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of > our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply > saddened by the attitude. > > Thanks, > Andy I'm nervous of joining this painful thread, in which so many people have said things I object to - but I'm concerned. So I'll try to be minimalist: I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and Richard Fairhurst. Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't > see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane > 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a > locally supported project. We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been reached. However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply saddened by the attitude. Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19/03/2017 21:29, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Or is your post simply a request for all people to follow *your* rules? Wow. Stay classy. I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to that, but there's an extensive debate about that sentence in the mailing list archives a propos of the French cadastre data. Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19 March 2017 at 20:55, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > However, just because I no longer spend my time batting back and forth to > every post on the lists, that does not mean I have the right to ignore the > same community guidelines which everyone else follows. Can you show where you have sought community support when making the following change to the Import Guidelines? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Import/Guidelines&diff=702968&oldid=687101 Or is your post simply a request for all people to follow *your* rules? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19 March 2017 at 19:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Please consider whether your words might offend ...and the goes on to equate a disagreement over import procedures to racist ethnic cleansing. That's *really* unacceptable. Who moderates this mailing list? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19/03/2017 19:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: It would be great if that exposed situation would make them lead by example, rather than assume that everyone else's rules don't apply to them. Yes. I've noticed a couple of 'we know best' & 'this is a local community for local people' style comments. OSM is a global endeavour. Although the import rules appear a bit strict, I think contributors should reach out instead of navel gazing. A "case study" is for assessing flaws as well as any good points. DaveF --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Rob, On 03/19/2017 04:04 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote: > I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I > don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an > arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to > derail a locally supported project. Please consider whether your words might offend those who think differently about mailing lists. The imports mailing list is *the* place in the project where you can get a lot of eyeballs helping you iron out problems. That's why we generally ask for imports to be discussed there before they happen; a large number of problems have been fixed before, instead of after, an import that way. A comment that points out a problem with an import might be perceived as "negative" but that's very short-sighted; even if it halts an import for a while by pointing out an issue, it is quite likely that the overall result of that "negatice" comment will be a better import (or a non-execution of a bad import). The West Midlands community is one of the oldest and most active local communities we have in OSM. It would be great if that exposed situation would make them lead by example, rather than assume that everyone else's rules don't apply to them. The question whether a truly local import needs (potentially international) discussion pops up often, and in many cases it might be unnecessary - but for every well-executed import by an experienced local community there's also a botched one by an inexperienced local community who were just as sure of themselves as the experienced one. Your idea of local empowerment sounds nice but I don't think it can be used as a general principle which I would like to illustrate by stretching that line of thought to the farcial extreme: "Our local community wants to get rid of black people. When we discussed this with other people outside of our local community, we were met with a lot of negativity. We would prefer if those communities who do not want to get rid of black people would focus their energy on something positive to them, while we help other communities who also want to get rid of black people." With that I want to say that you cannot be constructive and positive about everything; sometimes someone will want to do something where it is actually good that they have to listen to those who say no, and cozying up in your own little bubble without any negatvitiy can feel nice to you but be bad for the world. We need to strike a balance here, but "every local community can simply import whatever they want and it is none of the rest of the project's business" is certainly not that balance (unless the local community runs their own database and their own API). Something we also ask all mappers to do, and again something where I'd love to see West Mids team lead by example, is to reply to public changeset comments and not ignore them, for example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46819034 > Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had > already discussed and agreed it. It occurs to me that the changeset comment I linked above points out a few potential issues that a wider discussion could have unearthed before the import happened! > Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a > good case study. I think you might be getting carried away here. The changeset comment I linked mentions the following issues: * usual import guidelines not followed - as I explained above, while it is debatable whether they must always apply to local imports, a "great example to hold up" would certainly include that. * just looking at the first tree in this changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4732520560 there's a bunch of duplicate information on it (site name, ward etc.) and the species info might have been better placed as "genus" * https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.44699/-1.84369 shows an offset between tree data and other data; has this been discussed? * unclear plan for keeping imported data up to date Now these issues don't put the import in the class of "bad imports that warrant an immediate revert", but they are not issues I would like to see in an import hailed as an example to be followed by others. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Rob Nickerson wrote: > Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear > when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013 > when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same However, just because I no longer spend my time batting back and forth to every post on the lists, that does not mean I have the right to ignore the same community guidelines which everyone else follows. OSM is a community project, not a technical project. It works when people respect each other, rather than believing they know best. The import process is a way of making sure that the community is respected. You can summarise it in six words: "with great power comes great responsibility". That is, if you are proposing to make bulk changes to the map, you have to make sure the community comes along with you. You cannot just short-circuit this because you personally don't like some technology or other. If OSM-UK is to be led by people who openly display such disdain for the OSM community, I want no part of it. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Re-Talk-gb-westmidlands-Import-Progress-tp5893549p5893585.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Import Progress
So you decided that the Imports mailing list isn't useful and is too 20th Century for you. Don't you see how arrogant and disconnected you sound? An hour a week was spent in the provider's office, but not once was the process required by OSM to do imports mentioned? It may have been done by WM team, but clearly at least two directors of OSMUK support this flawed process. I repeat: What a Mess. Chris. P.S. telling me not to worry is horribly patronising Rob, please don't do it. On 19/03/2017 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: Hi Chris, I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a locally supported project. Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013 when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had already discussed and agreed it. Thus for every negative email there are usually many people who support it but just don't post. Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a good case study. Who else would spend an hour a week in the data providers office discussing not just the current data but methodologies for keeping it up to date. The new and old data is being consolidated as Brian mentioned in his post yesterday. Everything is in hand, so no need to worry. We are making huge strives forwards in the West Midlands and I'm looking forward to Open Data becoming the norm as a result of Brian's hard work. Rob P.s. this is being done by the local community not OSM UK which is still working up it's first project. As a fellow Director however I fully support Brian. I'm glad we have set up OSM UK and I hope it can get involved in similar projects where it is provided the devolved powers it needs to cater for it's community rather than leaving those decisions to an unclear "central power" that goes round in circles effectively preventing any new ideas seeing the light of day. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Import Progress
Hi Chris, I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a locally supported project. Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013 when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had already discussed and agreed it. Thus for every negative email there are usually many people who support it but just don't post. Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a good case study. Who else would spend an hour a week in the data providers office discussing not just the current data but methodologies for keeping it up to date. The new and old data is being consolidated as Brian mentioned in his post yesterday. Everything is in hand, so no need to worry. We are making huge strives forwards in the West Midlands and I'm looking forward to Open Data becoming the norm as a result of Brian's hard work. Rob P.s. this is being done by the local community not OSM UK which is still working up it's first project. As a fellow Director however I fully support Brian. I'm glad we have set up OSM UK and I hope it can get involved in similar projects where it is provided the devolved powers it needs to cater for it's community rather than leaving those decisions to an unclear "central power" that goes round in circles effectively preventing any new ideas seeing the light of day. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
