Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2017-05-19 at 12:22 +0100, SK53 wrote:
> Seems my earlier email was a timely reminder, We seem to be down to
> over 4,500 now. I know I can't have done more than a couple of
> thousand of these.
I have certainly seen evidence that these are simply being armchaired
with no particular overview. I had spotted some locally and decided
against changing the tags until I had the chance to review and map them
properly.

> One last note:
> 
>  The history of the landuse=farm tag is probably a good example of
> how OSM tags get revised, changed and disappear through a gradual
> process involving evolution of mappers consensus. 
> 
> I think the realisation that landuse=farm was ambiguous for mappers
> came even before I joined OSM in late 2008. I remember Harry Wood
> creating the photo showing differences in tagging back in 2009. Many
> mappers slowly moved over to landuse=farmyard & landuse=farmland, but
> obviously there were older objects which did not get retagged and
> some mappers will have continued the earlier usage. Only when it was
> clear that landuse=farm was a less widely used tag was the decision
> taken to remove rendering of the tag in the standard CartoCSS map,
> and it is this which is driving the current "NoFarm" project so as to
> minimise the appearance once that revision goes live.
> 
> This may have been a relatively uncontentious change in tagging, but
> even so it shows that for any widely used set of tags achieving a
> revision in how they are used takes time. There is always a
> perception that doing things in OSM is a race against time, but I
> think in most cases this is erroneous, and particularly because OSM
> itself is not commercial. Most stuff added to OSM is immediately
> useful to someone even if data is incomplete or tagging is
> inconsistent. 
Certainly no race against time for this one, crayoning vast areas of
the countryside orange without considering field boundaries has no
particular value IMHO.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Dave F]

On 19/05/2017 12:22, SK53 wrote:


We still have a very large number of place=farm, but I suspect these 
are much harder to resolve as many will be former farms which are now 
residential. Many, perhaps the bulk, of these have been added from OS 
OpenStreetView data.


place=farm will be harder to resolve as 'landuse' isn't perceived as a 
node tag. Converting nodes to polygons is laborious compared with 
tweaking a tag.


IMO these 'clean ups' don't happen often enough. It's not so much a race 
'against time' but against errors compounding & gaining authority purely 
on quantity (place=farm has almost doubled in the last year). Errors 
should be nipped in the bud.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[SK53]

Seems my earlier email was a timely reminder, We seem to be down to over
4,500  now. I
know I can't have done more than a couple of thousand of these.

We still have a very large number of place=farm, but I suspect these are
much harder to resolve as many will be former farms which are now
residential. Many, perhaps the bulk, of these have been added from OS
OpenStreetView data.

One last note:

 The history of the landuse=farm tag is probably a good example of how OSM
tags get revised, changed and disappear through a gradual process involving
evolution of mappers consensus.

I think the realisation that landuse=farm was ambiguous for mappers came
even before I joined OSM in late 2008. I remember Harry Wood creating the
photo showing differences in tagging back in 2009
.
Many mappers slowly moved over to landuse=farmyard & landuse=farmland, but
obviously there were older objects which did not get retagged and some
mappers will have continued the earlier usage. Only when it was clear that
landuse=farm was a less widely used tag was the decision taken to remove
rendering of the tag in the standard CartoCSS map, and it is this which is
driving the current "NoFarm" project so as to minimise the appearance once
that revision goes live.

This may have been a relatively uncontentious change in tagging, but even
so it shows that for any widely used set of tags achieving a revision in
how they are used takes time. There is always a perception that doing
things in OSM is a race against time, but I think in most cases this is
erroneous, and particularly because OSM itself is not commercial. Most
stuff added to OSM is immediately useful to someone even if data is
incomplete or tagging is inconsistent.

We should recognise that patience is a virtue in the resolution of the many
outstanding tagging issues we have today (forest/wood, grassy places,
residential roads in USA etc). That patience may be expressed by careful
advocacy of different tagging approaches, small scale chiselling away at
daunting quantities of confusingly tagged elements, revising rendering
rules and so on.

Patience is important because OSM is not a monolithic curated database, but
rather a pool of data from 100,000s of different sources (mainly mappers
but also imports) each with slightly different 'business logic'. Closing
the loop requires that these sources be included rather than simply
replacing values directly in OSM, which can only happen very late in the
process as with landuse=farm.

Jerry

On 16 May 2017 at 13:30, SK53  wrote:

> I just happened to notice on the Wiki (https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/NoFarm_cleanup_efforts) that the UK is still rather high up the
> laggards board for fixing landuse=farm to something more appropriate. Some
> areas look good (East & West Mids), but there tend to be strong
> concentrations of the older tag dotted around elsewhere.
>
> My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
> landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for farm
> buildings tagged with landuse though.
>
> Jerry
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Walter Nordmann]

Yes, UK is still waiting for cleanup - and i think the UK community 
should fix that.:


https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2017/nofarm_gbr_2017_05_16.png 



https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2017/nofarm_eu_2017_05_16.png 



https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2017/nofarm_world_2017_05_16.png 



many other areas have been done.

regards
walter, aka wambacher

btw: https://wambachers-osm.website/nofarm may be helpfull.


Am 16.05.2017 um 17:23 schrieb SK53:
I dont think there is any need: like replacing old-style multipolygons 
this is now a global ongoing project.


Jerry



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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[SK53]

I dont think there is any need: like replacing old-style multipolygons this
is now a global ongoing project.

Jerry


On 16 May 2017 at 15:23, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Yes we did and this discussion is a re-run of the points raised then - not
> that there's anything wrong with re-running discussions. If folk feel that
> this is a pressing problem then we could run another Quarterly Project with
> the same aim.
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 15:17, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
>
>> Didn't we have this as a quarterly project last year? Could another one
>> be proposed?
>>
>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 14:36 Dave F,  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 16/05/2017 13:30, SK53 wrote:
>>> > My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
>>> > landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for
>>> > farm buildings tagged with landuse though.
>>>
>>> To go with that there's the misuse of place=farm to represent a farmyard.
>>>
>>> DaveF
>>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Brian Prangle]

Yes we did and this discussion is a re-run of the points raised then - not
that there's anything wrong with re-running discussions. If folk feel that
this is a pressing problem then we could run another Quarterly Project with
the same aim.

On 16 May 2017 at 15:17, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Didn't we have this as a quarterly project last year? Could another one be
> proposed?
>
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 14:36 Dave F,  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16/05/2017 13:30, SK53 wrote:
>> > My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
>> > landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for
>> > farm buildings tagged with landuse though.
>>
>> To go with that there's the misuse of place=farm to represent a farmyard.
>>
>> DaveF
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Jez Nicholson]

Didn't we have this as a quarterly project last year? Could another one be
proposed?

On Tue, 16 May 2017 14:36 Dave F,  wrote:

>
> On 16/05/2017 13:30, SK53 wrote:
> > My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
> > landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for
> > farm buildings tagged with landuse though.
>
> To go with that there's the misuse of place=farm to represent a farmyard.
>
> DaveF
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Dave F]

On 16/05/2017 13:30, SK53 wrote:
My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be 
landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for 
farm buildings tagged with landuse though.


To go with that there's the misuse of place=farm to represent a farmyard.

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Paul Berry]

Apologies, I have just found:
https://wambachers-osm.website/nofarm/#layer=OpenStreetMap.org=FFT

Regards,
*Paul*

On 16 May 2017 at 14:32, Paul Berry  wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> Is there a quick way of seeing what needs fixing for a given area without
> running Overpass multiple times?
>
> Regards,
> *Paul*
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 13:30, SK53  wrote:
>
>> I just happened to notice on the Wiki (https://wiki.openstreetmap.or
>> g/wiki/NoFarm_cleanup_efforts) that the UK is still rather high up the
>> laggards board for fixing landuse=farm to something more appropriate. Some
>> areas look good (East & West Mids), but there tend to be strong
>> concentrations of the older tag dotted around elsewhere.
>>
>> My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
>> landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for farm
>> buildings tagged with landuse though.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[Paul Berry]

Jerry,

Is there a quick way of seeing what needs fixing for a given area without
running Overpass multiple times?

Regards,
*Paul*

On 16 May 2017 at 13:30, SK53  wrote:

> I just happened to notice on the Wiki (https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/NoFarm_cleanup_efforts) that the UK is still rather high up the
> laggards board for fixing landuse=farm to something more appropriate. Some
> areas look good (East & West Mids), but there tend to be strong
> concentrations of the older tag dotted around elsewhere.
>
> My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
> landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for farm
> buildings tagged with landuse though.
>
> Jerry
>
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[Talk-GB] Landuse Farm

[SK53]

I just happened to notice on the Wiki (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NoFarm_cleanup_efforts) that the UK is
still rather high up the laggards board for fixing landuse=farm to
something more appropriate. Some areas look good (East & West Mids), but
there tend to be strong concentrations of the older tag dotted around
elsewhere.

My experience is that roughly 5-10% of the polygons will be
landuse=farmyard, and the vast majority landuse=farmland. Watch for farm
buildings tagged with landuse though.

Jerry
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