Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Brian Prangle]

Given Stuart's professional knowledge in this area and the practice already
established by some of you to delete these I think their days are numbered.
Unless there's a huge protest to keep them I'll get started next week
In response to Andy's request sources for public transport applications
will include any site run  byTraveline  (just google travel line) or by the
major bus companies e.g Stagecoach, Arriva,Firstgroup, National Express, or
regional tansport bodies e.g tfwm,tfgm,wymetro or just google uk bus
journey planner. Or you could just use the fabulous(but unofficial)
bustimes.org
A related site <https://www.realjourneytime.co.uk/> developed by Tom Forth
from ODI Leeds displays dat feeds on actual bus times

Regards

Brian

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 16:49, Ed Loach  wrote:

> The interactive map on the plusbus site, e.g.
> http://www.plusbus.info/clacton-on-s perhaps has a better display as it
> shows the individual stops and perhaps rather than having the area mapped
> we should add a naptan tag to the stop nodes (for signposted stops I tend
> to just add naptancode and atcocode for stops that are new since the
> original import, e.g.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4942644320
>
> )
>
>
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> *From:* SK53 
> *Sent:* 04 April 2019 16:17
> *To:* Andy Townsend 
> *Cc:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data
>
>
>
> Like Andy I can find these useful, particularly as the ones on local PTE
> websites are very difficult to interpret. However, they suffer from the
> deficiencies of being a) unmaintained on OSM; b) not necessarily reflecting
> multiple bus pass zones; c) being fairly crude hulls of bus stops in the
> zone.
>
>
>
> I quickly made this comparison
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Ng_payscalearea.png> between
> the NAPTAN pay_scale_area (plusbuszone) for Nottingham (orange) and two
> concave hulls calculated with different parameters in QGIS (cyan (0.2) and
> blue (0.15)). All Naptan stops have a field imported into OSM as
> naptan:PlusbusZoneRef, that for Nottingham being NTNG which is what I used
> to identify bus stops for calculating the area.
>
>
>
> Thus providing information is held on bus stops or (tram & train stops)
> for a given transport zone  these zones can be derived from other data in
> OSM, and indeed can be derived in such as way as to be more informative
> (e.g. excluding sea for coastal towns). It may be worth discussing other
> ways to store information about bus pass zones.
>
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 11:28, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
> On 04/04/2019 11:05, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > I believe they were the zones covered by plusbus tickets.
> >
> I believe (and Stuart will know far more about this than me!) they
> predate the widescale adoption of PlusBus in the UK. Certainly when
> PlusBus was introduced in Chesterfield it didn't match the existing pay
> scale area, and since then neither current pay scale area (there is a
> small and a large one) operated by the local monopoly bus company
> matches the pay scale area that was in OSM before I deleted it.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Ed Loach]

The interactive map on the plusbus site, e.g. 
http://www.plusbus.info/clacton-on-s perhaps has a better display as it shows 
the individual stops and perhaps rather than having the area mapped we should 
add a naptan tag to the stop nodes (for signposted stops I tend to just add 
naptancode and atcocode for stops that are new since the original import, e.g.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4942644320

)

 

Ed

 

From: SK53  
Sent: 04 April 2019 16:17
To: Andy Townsend 
Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

 

Like Andy I can find these useful, particularly as the ones on local PTE 
websites are very difficult to interpret. However, they suffer from the 
deficiencies of being a) unmaintained on OSM; b) not necessarily reflecting 
multiple bus pass zones; c) being fairly crude hulls of bus stops in the zone.

 

I quickly made this comparison 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Ng_payscalearea.png>  between the 
NAPTAN pay_scale_area (plusbuszone) for Nottingham (orange) and two concave 
hulls calculated with different parameters in QGIS (cyan (0.2) and blue 
(0.15)). All Naptan stops have a field imported into OSM as 
naptan:PlusbusZoneRef, that for Nottingham being NTNG which is what I used to 
identify bus stops for calculating the area.

 

Thus providing information is held on bus stops or (tram & train stops) for a 
given transport zone  these zones can be derived from other data in OSM, and 
indeed can be derived in such as way as to be more informative (e.g. excluding 
sea for coastal towns). It may be worth discussing other ways to store 
information about bus pass zones.

 

Jerry

 

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 11:28, Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com> > wrote:

On 04/04/2019 11:05, Philip Barnes wrote:
> I believe they were the zones covered by plusbus tickets.
>
I believe (and Stuart will know far more about this than me!) they 
predate the widescale adoption of PlusBus in the UK. Certainly when 
PlusBus was introduced in Chesterfield it didn't match the existing pay 
scale area, and since then neither current pay scale area (there is a 
small and a large one) operated by the local monopoly bus company 
matches the pay scale area that was in OSM before I deleted it.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[SK53]

Like Andy I can find these useful, particularly as the ones on local PTE
websites are very difficult to interpret. However, they suffer from the
deficiencies of being a) unmaintained on OSM; b) not necessarily reflecting
multiple bus pass zones; c) being fairly crude hulls of bus stops in the
zone.

I quickly made this comparison
 between the
NAPTAN pay_scale_area (plusbuszone) for Nottingham (orange) and two concave
hulls calculated with different parameters in QGIS (cyan (0.2) and blue
(0.15)). All Naptan stops have a field imported into OSM as
naptan:PlusbusZoneRef, that for Nottingham being NTNG which is what I used
to identify bus stops for calculating the area.

Thus providing information is held on bus stops or (tram & train stops) for
a given transport zone  these zones can be derived from other data in OSM,
and indeed can be derived in such as way as to be more informative (e.g.
excluding sea for coastal towns). It may be worth discussing other ways to
store information about bus pass zones.

Jerry

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 11:28, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 04/04/2019 11:05, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > I believe they were the zones covered by plusbus tickets.
> >
> I believe (and Stuart will know far more about this than me!) they
> predate the widescale adoption of PlusBus in the UK. Certainly when
> PlusBus was introduced in Chesterfield it didn't match the existing pay
> scale area, and since then neither current pay scale area (there is a
> small and a large one) operated by the local monopoly bus company
> matches the pay scale area that was in OSM before I deleted it.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Ed Loach]

Stuart asked:

> What do you mean by “pay scale”? Are you meaning the definition of a stop as 
> a fare stage, or as part of a zone? 

 

The pay_scale_area ways were the PlusBus zones as they were in 2009 according 
to 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Import

 

e.g. this one for Clacton, which was never correct as it should have followed 
the coastline, not joined the end points directly:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/38387713

 

Ed

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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Andy Townsend]

On 04/04/2019 11:05, Philip Barnes wrote:

I believe they were the zones covered by plusbus tickets.

I believe (and Stuart will know far more about this than me!) they 
predate the widescale adoption of PlusBus in the UK. Certainly when 
PlusBus was introduced in Chesterfield it didn't match the existing pay 
scale area, and since then neither current pay scale area (there is a 
small and a large one) operated by the local monopoly bus company 
matches the pay scale area that was in OSM before I deleted it.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Philip Barnes]

I believe they were the zones covered by plusbus tickets.

Although the Telford one is certainly unlikely as it has not been maintained 
since the import and Telford has expanded beyond it.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 4 April 2019, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
> What do you mean by “pay scale”? Are you meaning the definition of a stop as 
> a fare stage, or as part of a zone?
> 
> If so, then this data needs to be deleted, forthwith, as it will never be 
> right. Outside of the regulated market that is London, different stops can be 
> fare stages for different operators, even when they are running similar 
> services along the same corridor routes. It is completely deregulated. And 
> that’s before we get onto zonal fares, which will have a different allocation 
> of stops to zones.
> 
> The Bus Services Act 2017 makes provision for the Secretary of State to 
> require bus companies to publish their fares data. There is a lot of work 
> going on at the minute within the industry to define how this will be done, 
> but the general principle (and this is all in the public domain) is that a) 
> operators will publish the data themselves; b) it will be discoverable via a 
> portal that the DfT will provide; and c) it is likely to use the CEN “NeTEx” 
> XML schema to do so. We are currently defining what the UK profile for this 
> will look like. Fares, though, won’t be mandatory until much later on - the 
> focus is initially on getting the provision of routes and timetables.
> 
> Some of this information will be “static” (or at least semi-static) i.e. 
> stops allocated to zones which will change infrequently. An individual 
> operator’s fare stages may also be relatively stable, but there is no 
> guarantee of that. So I don’t think that this should ever form part of a 
> database like OSM simply because of its lack of permanence. At best, it will 
> be an aligned data set IMHO.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Stuart Reynolds
> for traveline south east & anglia
> 
> 
> 
> On 4 Apr 2019, at 10:37, Andy Townsend 
> mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> On 04/04/2019 09:38, Brian Prangle wrote:
> Hi everyone
> 
> Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale areas - 
> tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why we ever did this 
> - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly unlikely that any OSM 
> data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed they are still current).
> 
> I actually did use the local ones (when they were accurate), but as the bus 
> companies changed their rules I deleted them because they were just wrong.
> 
> 
> The information is better in public_transport applications run by public 
> transport bodies
> 
> Can you give an example of where such information might be found?  I could 
> hesitate a guess*, but I suspect not every reader of this list in the future 
> would necessarily be aware of that.
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm proposing that they are all deleted
> 
> The equivalent for anywhere with a sane public transport system might object, 
> but it could be that no such place exists outside London...
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> * locally a combination of the council website, Bus company websites, 
> Traveline and Google Maps are all likely to be equally wrong in different 
> ways.  There is no authoritative answer.  When services were withdrawn due to 
> government cuts last year the best answer was usually to ask the driver when 
> a particular service would stop running.
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Andy Townsend]

On 04/04/2019 10:48, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
What do you mean by “pay scale”? Are you meaning the definition of a 
stop as a fare stage, or as part of a zone?



Example:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/38387740

(that's one that I haven't deleted yet)

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

When I come across them I always delete them.

To map them as polygons was nonsense.

A few years ago the person who added them confessed he couldn't remember 
why he'd done it.


If there is a desire to to be added they should be on the bus stops, 
similar to the fare_zones I recently added to the London Underground 
stations.


DaveF



On 04/04/2019 10:00, Philip Barnes wrote:

The Telford one certainly looks highly dubious cutting residential areas and 
bus routes.

I agree these and public transport routes are best left to organisations such 
as traveline. After all a bus route without timetable information is pretty 
useless.
  
Phil (trigpoint)



On Thursday, 4 April 2019, Nick Allen wrote:

Brian,

Sounds like a good idea.

Nick
(Tallguy)

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 09:38 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi everyone

Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale
areas - tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why
we ever did this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly
unlikely that any OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed
they are still current). The information is better in
public_transport applications run by public transport bodies

So I'm proposing that they are all deleted

Regards

Brian



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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Stuart Reynolds]

What do you mean by “pay scale”? Are you meaning the definition of a stop as a 
fare stage, or as part of a zone?

If so, then this data needs to be deleted, forthwith, as it will never be 
right. Outside of the regulated market that is London, different stops can be 
fare stages for different operators, even when they are running similar 
services along the same corridor routes. It is completely deregulated. And 
that’s before we get onto zonal fares, which will have a different allocation 
of stops to zones.

The Bus Services Act 2017 makes provision for the Secretary of State to require 
bus companies to publish their fares data. There is a lot of work going on at 
the minute within the industry to define how this will be done, but the general 
principle (and this is all in the public domain) is that a) operators will 
publish the data themselves; b) it will be discoverable via a portal that the 
DfT will provide; and c) it is likely to use the CEN “NeTEx” XML schema to do 
so. We are currently defining what the UK profile for this will look like. 
Fares, though, won’t be mandatory until much later on - the focus is initially 
on getting the provision of routes and timetables.

Some of this information will be “static” (or at least semi-static) i.e. stops 
allocated to zones which will change infrequently. An individual operator’s 
fare stages may also be relatively stable, but there is no guarantee of that. 
So I don’t think that this should ever form part of a database like OSM simply 
because of its lack of permanence. At best, it will be an aligned data set IMHO.


Regards,
Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia



On 4 Apr 2019, at 10:37, Andy Townsend 
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 04/04/2019 09:38, Brian Prangle wrote:
Hi everyone

Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale areas - 
tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why we ever did this - 
there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly unlikely that any OSM data 
consumer makes use of them ( if indeed they are still current).

I actually did use the local ones (when they were accurate), but as the bus 
companies changed their rules I deleted them because they were just wrong.


The information is better in public_transport applications run by public 
transport bodies

Can you give an example of where such information might be found?  I could 
hesitate a guess*, but I suspect not every reader of this list in the future 
would necessarily be aware of that.



So I'm proposing that they are all deleted

The equivalent for anywhere with a sane public transport system might object, 
but it could be that no such place exists outside London...

Best Regards,

Andy

* locally a combination of the council website, Bus company websites, Traveline 
and Google Maps are all likely to be equally wrong in different ways.  There is 
no authoritative answer.  When services were withdrawn due to government cuts 
last year the best answer was usually to ask the driver when a particular 
service would stop running.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Andy Townsend]

On 04/04/2019 09:38, Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi everyone

Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale 
areas - tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why we 
ever did this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly 
unlikely that any OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed they 
are still current).


I actually did use the local ones (when they were accurate), but as the 
bus companies changed their rules I deleted them because they were just 
wrong.



The information is better in public_transport applications run by 
public transport bodies


Can you give an example of where such information might be found?  I 
could hesitate a guess*, but I suspect not every reader of this list in 
the future would necessarily be aware of that.





So I'm proposing that they are all deleted


The equivalent for anywhere with a sane public transport system might 
object, but it could be that no such place exists outside London...


Best Regards,

Andy

* locally a combination of the council website, Bus company websites, 
Traveline and Google Maps are all likely to be equally wrong in 
different ways.  There is no authoritative answer.  When services were 
withdrawn due to government cuts last year the best answer was usually 
to ask the driver when a particular service would stop running.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Philip Barnes]

The Telford one certainly looks highly dubious cutting residential areas and 
bus routes.

I agree these and public transport routes are best left to organisations such 
as traveline. After all a bus route without timetable information is pretty 
useless. 
 
Phil (trigpoint)


On Thursday, 4 April 2019, Nick Allen wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> Sounds like a good idea.
> 
> Nick
> (Tallguy)
> 
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 09:38 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:
> > Hi everyone
> > 
> > Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale
> > areas - tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why
> > we ever did this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly
> > unlikely that any OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed
> > they are still current). The information is better in
> > public_transport applications run by public transport bodies
> > 
> > So I'm proposing that they are all deleted
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Brian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___Talk-GB mailing
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Nick Allen]

Brian,

Sounds like a good idea.

Nick
(Tallguy)

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 09:38 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:
> Hi everyone
> 
> Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale
> areas - tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why
> we ever did this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly
> unlikely that any OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed
> they are still current). The information is better in
> public_transport applications run by public transport bodies
> 
> So I'm proposing that they are all deleted
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
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[Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale areas
- tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why we ever did
this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly unlikely that any
OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed they are still current).
The information is better in public_transport applications run by public
transport bodies

So I'm proposing that they are all deleted

Regards

Brian
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