Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
Tom The TfL bus maps may not be usable but the timetable data on which they are based are available at traveline.info/tnds under the Open Government Licence. Is that "ODBL-compatible" or am I missing your point? A note of caution however. This week's edition of the London data includes breadcrumb trails of the "track" taken between each bus stop. I am not sure that TfL have intended to release this level of detail because of map copyright issues. However if you ignore everything between the tags, then the rest of the Routelink records, ie the stop to stop links, are what is normally available as Open Data. Regards Peter Stoner In message Tom Chance wrote: > On 29 September 2013 18:52, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: >> I'm really after moral backing that this is a breach, as I'd be surprised >> if >> they took my word for it. They have an investment in quite a few bus >> routes >> that they, probably, wouldn't want redacted. >> > You definitely can't copy TfL bus maps. You have to follow the signs, or > ride the routes, toot toot! > Sadly TfL still don't release their "open" data in a simple way under an > ODBL-compatible license. > Regards, > Tom -- Peter Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline Information Limited m: 07917 525679 e: peter.sto...@traveline.info ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
Kevin Steen writes: > What's the safest way to proceed with this - delete the relation > entirely and create a new one from my notes? There is no need to delete a relation that was created from legitimate sources. The best way would would be to remove the misleading tag with a changeset comment that says why it wrong. -- Andrew ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
On 29 September 2013 22:03, wrote: > The TfL bus maps may not be usable but the timetable data on which > they are based are available at traveline.info/tnds under the Open > Government Licence. Is that "ODBL-compatible" or am I missing your > point? > I didn't know about that, thanks. I was referring to TfL's own data feeds for developers, which have restrictive terms on them: http://data.london.gov.uk/datastore/package/tfl-bus-stop-locations-and-routes You could add bus stops to a relation from the timetable, but not the roads the buses travel along in between except where the route is incredibly obvious. Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
Tom The TfL bus maps may not be usable but the timetable data on which they are based are available at traveline.info/tnds under the Open Government Licence. Is that "ODBL-compatible" or am I missing your point? A note of caution however. This week's edition of the London data includes breadcrumb trails of the "track" taken between each bus stop. I am not sure that TfL have intended to release this level of detail because of map copyright issues. However if you ignore everything between the tags, then the rest of the Routelink records, ie the stop to stop links, are what is normally available as Open Data. Regards Peter Stoner In message Tom Chance wrote: > On 29 September 2013 18:52, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: >> I'm really after moral backing that this is a breach, as I'd be surprised >> if >> they took my word for it. They have an investment in quite a few bus >> routes >> that they, probably, wouldn't want redacted. >> > You definitely can't copy TfL bus maps. You have to follow the signs, or > ride the routes, toot toot! > Sadly TfL still don't release their "open" data in a simple way under an > ODBL-compatible license. > Regards, > Tom -- Peter Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline Information Limited m: 07917 525679 e: peter.sto...@traveline.info ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
On 29/09/13 18:52, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: > On 29 September 2013 18:27, Andrew wrote: >> OpenStreetmap HADW writes: >> >>> My own assumption is that they are not a valid source, but I've just >>> discovered one route, by a contributor who has added several bus >>> routes, where their bus route finder web site has been quoted as a >>> source from version 1 of the relation. >> >> Have you tried contacting the mapper? > > I sent them a message expressing concern just before posting to the list. > > I'm really after moral backing that this is a breach, as I'd be surprised if > they took my word for it. They have an investment in quite a few bus routes > that they, probably, wouldn't want redacted. I am the mapper who created that particular relation and I definitely rode that bus in both directions, so the only information gleaned from the TfL website is the existence of the route. I even took photos of my hand-scribbled notes and saved them with the gpx files in case it ever needs proving. Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I'll be sure to check such things more carefully in the future. I can't recall how that source tag came to be there - I can only assume that being one of the first few relations I ever did, I had copied it from another relation and edited it. What's the safest way to proceed with this - delete the relation entirely and create a new one from my notes? -Kevin ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
On 29 September 2013 18:52, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: > I'm really after moral backing that this is a breach, as I'd be surprised > if > they took my word for it. They have an investment in quite a few bus > routes > that they, probably, wouldn't want redacted. > You definitely can't copy TfL bus maps. You have to follow the signs, or ride the routes, toot toot! Sadly TfL still don't release their "open" data in a simple way under an ODBL-compatible license. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
On 29 September 2013 18:27, Andrew wrote: > OpenStreetmap HADW writes: > >> My own assumption is that they are not a valid source, but I've just >> discovered one route, by a contributor who has added several bus >> routes, where their bus route finder web site has been quoted as a >> source from version 1 of the relation. > > Have you tried contacting the mapper? I sent them a message expressing concern just before posting to the list. I'm really after moral backing that this is a breach, as I'd be surprised if they took my word for it. They have an investment in quite a few bus routes that they, probably, wouldn't want redacted. (I'm actually a bit concerned that other people have been using such sources (very prolific and not checking if they are already part mapped), but haven't given any source, so I can't be sure..) Where people quote sources like this one (or more generally quote a URL, rather than a standard source tag), I think they are thinking more in wikipedia terms. Wikipedia tends not to concern itself with database copyrights, as long as the exact wording of a source isn't reproduced. For wikipedia, the source goes to show that the material is not "original research". On the other hand, OSM actually prefers original research - a survey is the highest form of source. Incidentally, that means that care needs to be taken in using wikipedia to source OSM; importing from multiple articles may, indirectly import a copyright database.. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
OpenStreetmap HADW writes: > My own assumption is that they are not a valid source, but I've just > discovered one route, by a contributor who has added several bus > routes, where their bus route finder web site has been quoted as a > source from version 1 of the relation. Have you tried contacting the mapper? -- Andrew ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] TfL bus maps as source
Have TfL bus maps been cleared as a source? If so, why aren't they being more extensively used? My own assumption is that they are not a valid source, but I've just discovered one route, by a contributor who has added several bus routes, where their bus route finder web site has been quoted as a source from version 1 of the relation. The relation is 3073309. My view is that I need to ride the route, or follow it from stop to stop on the ground to get copyright safe information. Sorry to keep raising these copyright issues, but I do see it as the biggest threat to OSM, given that the new generation of contributors come from a popular culture that doesn't appreciate copyrights. (I wasn't looking for copyright issues. I've been chasing broken and missing links from the London bus wiki page, trying to sort out where people have restarted routes without consulting it, and trying to complete the repair from the mass deletion of London relations by a Russian, with the comment 'improve security', a significant number of which failed to revert first time.) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
