Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
At first look I thought this was a once-hedge, a hedge that's been left to itself. But each tree is equally spaced, looks the same age, doesn't seem pollarded or coppiced as what you might expect a tree in a hedge to be, and so I don't think that's the case now. So to my mind now, it's a fence, with individual mappable trees. A hedge implies a barrier of kinds. On 26 August 2018 at 20:35, Martin Wynne wrote: > Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For example, is > this: > > https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542 > > a) a fence, > > b) a hedge, > > c) a very narrow wood, > > d) all three at the same time? > > Is the area in front of it > > a) grass, > > b) highway, > > c) both? > > (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.) > > Often a wood adjoins an open area such as a water meadow. If there is a > fence between them, the boundary is clear, even if the wood canopy overlaps > into the meadow. If there isn't a fence, where do you put the boundary? The > edge of the canopy? The line of tree trunks? Some imaginary line between > the two? > > Some trees are very large and their branches can extend a significant > distance - across a river for example. > > Thanks. > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On 28/08/18 04:00, Chris Hill wrote: On 27/08/2018 18:09, Martin Wynne wrote: Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden does not exist in OSM. There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed then you can use it. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway Hi Phil, I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of having a vote about it? That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, and there are more opposed to it than in favour. There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If it is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, what is the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad who would ever know that it is in there? There are no official or approved tags. There are 'approved' tags. These are ones voted on and reach the required number of votes, proportion of yes votes and the required minimum times for comments on the tagging list and time for voting. Tags existed before that system .. these normally have the status defacto. Tags that have not been 'approved' but have large use might have the status 'inuse'. There are thousands of renders, each one is free to use the tags they want. If you want a specialist cycle map or specialist sports map you can create it, focussing on the items you want to show. The problem with having a few maps on the landing page of OSM is that newcomers assume they are the way things are rendered, when anything is possible. Voting is, IMHO, largely pointless and possibly a bad thing as it lends an air of importance to a tag when in reality a couple of dozen people said Yes to an idea they may know nothing about nor even ever use. By seeking the tagging groups discussion a wider world view can be obtained rather than a local view possibly of one person. The voting can be destructive. But the discussions can be helpful. The only metric that matters is whether a tag is used, and yes landuse = highway is used and makes a lot of sense to me. Agree that landuse=highway makes sense. I disagree that landuse=highway would confuse a router.. routers look for the key highway=* ... not the value *=highway. So I think the comment that landuse=hightway cannot be used is totally wrong. The acceptance of a tag by renders goes a long way to getting people to use it. Catch 22 is that the renders don't like to use a tag unless it has significant use. One way of encouraging use is to document it well on the OSM wiki. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 18:09:53 +0100 Martin Wynne wrote: > the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad > who would ever know that it is in there? I'm sure that an actual on-the-ground verified UFO landing pad really would be a valuable addition. Mike E -- GPG Key fingerprint = 0D8A 33A8 F7F8 733C 7519 2A56 DB8F 7CF1 C67B BC0F ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On 27/08/2018 18:09, Martin Wynne wrote: Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden does not exist in OSM. There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed then you can use it. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway Hi Phil, I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of having a vote about it? That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, and there are more opposed to it than in favour. There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If it is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, what is the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad who would ever know that it is in there? There are no official or approved tags. There are thousands of renders, each one is free to use the tags they want. If you want a specialist cycle map or specialist sports map you can create it, focussing on the items you want to show. The problem with having a few maps on the landing page of OSM is that newcomers assume they are the way things are rendered, when anything is possible. Voting is, IMHO, largely pointless and possibly a bad thing as it lends an air of importance to a tag when in reality a couple of dozen people said Yes to an idea they may know nothing about nor even ever use. The only metric that matters is whether a tag is used, and yes landuse = highway is used and makes a lot of sense to me. If you want to add UFO landing pads that you can *verify* on the ground then use the tag. If it is popular then the guys who maintain the OSM website map schemas may even include them there. You would be free to create your own map render that shows the sites for the hoards of UFO spotters to navigate there. -- cheers Chris Hill (chillly) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden does not exist in OSM. There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed then you can use it. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway Hi Phil, I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of having a vote about it? That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, and there are more opposed to it than in favour. There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If it is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, what is the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad who would ever know that it is in there? regards, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 15:52 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote: > > Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the > > left > > side. How is that any different to landuse=railway? > > > > Phil (trigpoint) > > Hi Phil, > > For railways you can have landuse=railway_corridor for sidings and > other > wide areas inside the railway's boundary fence. But there doesn't > seem > to be a corresponding highway_corridor available. > Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden does not exist in OSM. There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed then you can use it. The tag has existed on the A55 for some years, so I think if was causing problems for routers we would have noticed by now. There is certainly an ongoing proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway There seems to be some confusion, no doubt due to American usage, but the concept does make perfect sense to me. It certainly does not say forbidden. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the left side. How is that any different to landuse=railway? Phil (trigpoint) Hi Phil, For railways you can have landuse=railway_corridor for sidings and other wide areas inside the railway's boundary fence. But there doesn't seem to be a corresponding highway_corridor available. regards, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 15:29 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote: > > > What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise > > > be > > > the most logical way to deal with such areas. > > > > > > > Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these > > areas. > > > > Phil (trigpoint) > > Hi Phil, > > I was told on one of the forums that it was forbidden, because it > affects routing apps, satnavs, etc. > > You can have "highway" on the left of an = sign, but not on the > right. > > i.e. it can be a keyword but not a value. > > The logic of that is as clear as mud to me. > Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the left side. How is that any different to landuse=railway? Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be the most logical way to deal with such areas. Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these areas. Phil (trigpoint) Hi Phil, I was told on one of the forums that it was forbidden, because it affects routing apps, satnavs, etc. You can have "highway" on the left of an = sign, but not on the right. i.e. it can be a keyword but not a value. The logic of that is as clear as mud to me. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 13:48 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote: > What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be > the > most logical way to deal with such areas. > Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these areas. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Another instance where this can cause problems is something like a public square, in many cases these are legally highways even if they are, at least most of the time, pedestrianised. But you can't tag an area as a highway, only a way. So you can't tag a public open space as a highway even if, legally, it is. Hi Mark, A highway doesn't have to be a way. For public squares and similar you can have area=yes and highway=pedestrian, extending beyond the actual road ways (which retain their colour but lose their border lines on the render). In theory you could use that for the area between the hedgerows along all public roads, to avoid the ugly "no man's land" which becomes visible when zoomed in on the render. What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be the most logical way to deal with such areas. regards, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On 27/08/18 04:20, Chris Jones wrote: 1) The boundary is is clearly a fence. Thats what stops you just walking across. Also OSM should not pretend to indicate legal boundaries. In fact, in the real world, these can be quite fuzzy, as they depend on verbal descriptions, or rough maps from long before DGPS. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On Sun, 2018-08-26 at 20:35 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote: > Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For > example, > is this: > > https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542 > > a) a fence, > > b) a hedge, > > c) a very narrow wood, > > d) all three at the same time? > > Is the area in front of it > > a) grass, > > b) highway, > > c) both? > > (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.) I’d map it as a fence, with some tree nodes for each tree (since there aren’t many of them and they’re fairly distinct). I wouldn’t bother mapping the grass verge, since that’s not really useful for navigation or any other use of OSM data that I can think of; and life is too short. I would make sure to set sidewalk=left or sidewalk=right (depending on which way you’ve mapped the road) on the road line, since that’s useful for pedestrian navigation. It could be used to predict that there’s a verge on the other side too. I’d also say lit=yes on the road, for completeness. Philip signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Hi Martin, 1) The boundary is is clearly a fence. Thats what stops you just walking across. You can map the trees as several natural : tree or a tree_row depending on how long the row is I guess. Certainly not a hedge or wood. 2) The road is a highway, the grass is a verge.. the wiki suggests you can either tag the verge as a property of the highway or as a separate landuse=grass. Your call, but to me in this case its part of the highway. — Chris > On 27 Aug 2018, at 05:35, Martin Wynne wrote: > > Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For example, is > this: > > https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542 > > a) a fence, > > b) a hedge, > > c) a very narrow wood, > > d) all three at the same time? > > Is the area in front of it > > a) grass, > > b) highway, > > c) both? > > (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.) > > Often a wood adjoins an open area such as a water meadow. If there is a fence > between them, the boundary is clear, even if the wood canopy overlaps into > the meadow. If there isn't a fence, where do you put the boundary? The edge > of the canopy? The line of tree trunks? Some imaginary line between the two? > > Some trees are very large and their branches can extend a significant > distance - across a river for example. > > Thanks. > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
When someone's appearance is still presentable after being dragged backwards through one. DaveF ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On 26/08/2018 23:16, Martin Wynne wrote: Both. It's administratively and legally part of the highway, but it's the part of the highway which consists of a grass verge. Thanks Mark. I think I should map that as landuse=highway landcover=grass However for some inexplicable reason, landuse=highway isn't allowed. I was told the reason is in the name Open *STREET* Map, although I'm none the wiser. This is a terminology thing again. OSM uses "highway" to refer to the route you travel along, with various tags to indicate the importance and permissions of the route, while UK legislation uses the word to refer to a legal function. Another instance where this can cause problems is something like a public square, in many cases these are legally highways even if they are, at least most of the time, pedestrianised. But you can't tag an area as a highway, only a way. So you can't tag a public open space as a highway even if, legally, it is. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Both. It's administratively and legally part of the highway, but it's the part of the highway which consists of a grass verge. Thanks Mark. I think I should map that as landuse=highway landcover=grass However for some inexplicable reason, landuse=highway isn't allowed. I was told the reason is in the name Open *STREET* Map, although I'm none the wiser. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
On 26/08/2018 20:35, Martin Wynne wrote: Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For example, is this: https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542 a) a fence, b) a hedge, c) a very narrow wood, d) all three at the same time? I'd call it a hedgerow. I'm not sure if OSM has a tag for that, distinct to a hedge (which is a different thing, despite the similarity in name). Is the area in front of it a) grass, b) highway, c) both? Both. It's administratively and legally part of the highway, but it's the part of the highway which consists of a grass verge. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?
Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For example, is this: https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542 a) a fence, b) a hedge, c) a very narrow wood, d) all three at the same time? Is the area in front of it a) grass, b) highway, c) both? (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.) Often a wood adjoins an open area such as a water meadow. If there is a fence between them, the boundary is clear, even if the wood canopy overlaps into the meadow. If there isn't a fence, where do you put the boundary? The edge of the canopy? The line of tree trunks? Some imaginary line between the two? Some trees are very large and their branches can extend a significant distance - across a river for example. Thanks. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
