Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Hello Chris, Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the I never said they were, although I concede it could read like that. However, some addresses do seem to get mutilated once Royal Mail get their hands on them. As others have pointed out, it can lead to having a hard time getting some things delivered. How can you determine the postal town from a survey? Of course, you can't. If I want the _postal_ address of somewhere, I use the RM web site. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent The public wants what the public gets Going Underground - The Jam ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
It seems that that the housenumber/name/street/postcode is probably non-controversial - but the town/locality is, because RM have a specific view on the world. Has anyone looked at the use cases here? I am guessing that the main use case is for navigation - you have to go somewhere and you ask your counterpart where you have to go to. What addressing information might be useful to the user? Probably not Civil Parish, for all sorts of reasons of reasons. Districts/boroughs are often too large to be useful for this purpose. Boundaries of localities (not being CPs) are AFAIK very poorly defined. So what type of information would fill the gap between street level and district level? By the way, CRM systems allow for multiple types of address for the same object. Postal address, PO Box address, visiting address... Which paradigm are we following? C. On 2014-10-27 09:39, Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Hello Chris, Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the I never said they were, although I concede it could read like that. However, some addresses do seem to get mutilated once Royal Mail get their hands on them. As others have pointed out, it can lead to having a hard time getting some things delivered. How can you determine the postal town from a survey? Of course, you can't. If I want the _postal_ address of somewhere, I use the RM web site. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
Are the postal towns not the town that is represented by the first part of the postcode? So CW for Crewe for instance. My parents live in Swaffham in Norfolk but Royal Mail have them is Cambridgeshire with a PE (Peterborough) postcode. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Andy Street [mailto:a...@street.me.uk] Sent: 27 October 2014 01:04 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place) On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. I was aware that LAs have a role in numbering and naming new streets but I was unaware that they assigned full addresses. Perhaps someone could take pity on this poor simpleton and explain how this works. I've grabbed my GPS, wandered down High Street and added a waymark outside number 10. When I get back home how do I go about converting this data into a full address that I can add to OSM? Is this contentious? No, just confusing! ;) How can you determine the postal town from a survey? In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/14 01:04, Andy Street wrote: How can you determine the postal town from a survey? In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. But bare in mind that some roads may well go there several postal towns. The Uxbridge Road in London comes to mind here, although do we have 'Ermine Street' as a single entity? :) By the way http://www.nlpg.org.uk/nlpg/link.htm?nwid=19 gives a nice summary, and while the data is not freely available - yet - http://www.iahub.net/docs/1367594535007.pdf has all the details and even defines a few areas like bridleway, cycletrack and the like! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/14 09:24, Andy Robinson wrote: Are the postal towns not the town that is represented by the first part of the postcode? So CW for Crewe for instance. My parents live in Swaffham in Norfolk but Royal Mail have them is Cambridgeshire with a PE (Peterborough) postcode. Not exclusively! Properties are grouped by the delivery area footprint covered by sorting offices which in some areas may not align even with local ward boundaries! There have been some examples given of different area postcodes for different sides of a street in the past. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/14 01:04, Andy Street wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hillo...@raggedred.net wrote: Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. I was aware that LAs have a role in numbering and naming new streets but I was unaware that they assigned full addresses. As I understand it, they only allocate full addresses in the the context of postal town system. Although postcodes make it less important that street name be unique within a postal town/London postal district, I think the local authorities still actually implement that restriction. I certainly think they will make them unique within an outbound postcode. Perhaps someone could take pity on this poor simpleton and explain how this works. I've grabbed my GPS, wandered down High Street and added a waymark outside number 10. When I get back home how do I go about converting this data into a full address that I can add to OSM? You cannot use the authoritative database that the local authority uses, the NLPG, which, incidentally, includes things like sub-stations, garage blocks, and gas installations as well as postal delivery points. That's because it is a copyright and monetised database, so you basically have to rely on local knowledge. Local knowledge is an accepted source for OSM. Whilst place name signs may sometimes give a clue as to administrative boundaries, I don't think you can put total reliance on them. It is like the question with the low emission zone; signs only tell you the situation at one specific point. In any case, if people give you a locality based, rather than postal town based address, they are likely to use estate agents' districts, for which there is probably no formal database, or historic locality names, which have no legally defined boundaries. In practice, the advent of satellite navigators probably means that the post code is what people will give, even though, if postcodes hadn't existed an OSGB, or even WGS84, grid reference would have been better suited to the purpose. Incidentally some local councils do, effectively, make the NLPG data for their council visible in their online query services, but you still can't use it for OSM. Although there seems to be a big hunt on to add postcodes to OSM, because that is what the general public puts into their satellite navigators, and I suspect there are lot taken from unacceptable sources, the real holy grail would be to reconstruct the NLPG. Looking at the specification, just linked to, it looks like RM post towns are a key piece of information. The other information is the administrative unit, which is also something you cannot get from just an on the ground survey, without asking people. I think most people only have a vague notion of the administrative unit they are in, even though it is key to local democracy. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/14 09:24, Andy Robinson wrote: Are the postal towns not the town that is represented by the first part of the postcode? So CW for Crewe for instance. My parents live in Swaffham in Norfolk but Royal Mail have them is Cambridgeshire with a PE (Peterborough) postcode. Not at all. My postcode is EN for Enfield, but my post town is Hoddesdon, that being where the delivery office is for my part of the EN district. I believe that EN11 8/9/0 all have Hoddesdon as post town - not sure if it goes wider than that. Likewise my parents have a TA postcode for Taunton, but their post town is Crewkerne. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/14 10:38, Tom Hughes wrote: The entire postcode is split (by the space) into the outward postcode and inward postcode and the outward postcode combined with the leading digits from the inward give you a postal sector. There is an additional part of the post code, the delivery point suffix, which you will find in the bar codes from utilities, banks, insurance companies, etc., which identifies the address down to the exact point where it leaves the postal system. In my case, it is just the house number expressed in the, base 24, number system used for the DPS. This is only available to PAF subscribers - it is not on the public post code search sites - and its use is required for some of RM's cheaper bulk tariffs. NLPG doesn't seem to use it. You use their unique identifiers at that level of detail. They also include entities which have no DPS. It slightly amuses me that the police suggest property marking with the house number as a suffix to the postcode, when there is actually an extended postcode that would be a more reliably unique identifier. (The code may be in fluorescent ink, so difficult to see, but it can be decoded to find your DPS.) http://www.davros.org/postcodes/ukformat.html ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 27/10/2014 09:24, Andy Robinson wrote: Are the postal towns not the town that is represented by the first part of the postcode? So CW for Crewe for instance. No: a postcode alpha prefix will typically cover several post towns. My parents live in Swaffham in Norfolk but Royal Mail have them is Cambridgeshire with a PE (Peterborough) postcode. Are you sure? The official address for postcode PE37 7QN, for instance, is Mangate Street, SWAFFHAM, Norfolk, PE37 7QN. SWAFFHAM is the post town and Norfolk the (optional) county. -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
That was the point I was making really. To the uneducated, but knowing that PE means Peterborough in Cambridgeshire, a casual look at a PE37 postcode doesn't reveal anything about Swaffham in Norfolk. You need a PAF translation to understand that. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Steve Doerr [mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com] Sent: 27 October 2014 13:27 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place) On 27/10/2014 09:24, Andy Robinson wrote: Are the postal towns not the town that is represented by the first part of the postcode? So CW for Crewe for instance. No: a postcode alpha prefix will typically cover several post towns. My parents live in Swaffham in Norfolk but Royal Mail have them is Cambridgeshire with a PE (Peterborough) postcode. Are you sure? The official address for postcode PE37 7QN, for instance, is Mangate Street, SWAFFHAM, Norfolk, PE37 7QN. SWAFFHAM is the post town and Norfolk the (optional) county. -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 26/10/14 21:58, Andy Street wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. Is this contentious? How can you determine the postal town from a survey? -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 26/10/14 21:58, Andy Street wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? The correct information is contained in a reference we are not allowed to use. The NLPG - National Land and Property Gazetteer. In that the correct places and town names are used for the cross link references in the National Street Gazetteer. Post Codes are cross referenced, but to not form a 'primary' key since there ARE deemed to be of secondary importance and may not be accurate. The LLPG files that I have private access to throw up some interesting problems when trying to create a post code table from them since the front line staff prefer to use that as a quick means of finding a persons address, so one has to cheat to get it to work in cases like those already highlighted. Camden and the like are places in London, but nowadays London tends to get classified as a 'county' and then the boroughs are 'towns' but neither models are particularly accurate? The metropolitan areas simply don't fit a 'place/town' model. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. I was aware that LAs have a role in numbering and naming new streets but I was unaware that they assigned full addresses. Perhaps someone could take pity on this poor simpleton and explain how this works. I've grabbed my GPS, wandered down High Street and added a waymark outside number 10. When I get back home how do I go about converting this data into a full address that I can add to OSM? Is this contentious? No, just confusing! ;) How can you determine the postal town from a survey? In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. .. Which is the norm. Wikipedia says : In a minority of cases a single number can cover two post towns - for example, the WN8 district includes Wigan and Skelmersdale post towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
