Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Hi Brian,
Thank you for your feedback. I will address your points one by one.
On 3 February 2014 19:55, Brian Prangle wrote:
> I can't see the point of putting Naptan:Street into the name - it will just
> repeat information that's already there in the street itself. Common name
> only is what is used I believe in the rest of the UK.
In fact it is fairly common to use the street name as part of the stop
name. Other counties where it is done like that are Wear and Tyne,
Cumbria, West Yorkshire, Kingston upon Hull, South Yorkshire, Greater
Manchester, Merseyside, and Norfolk.
Also take into account that we have a bit of an exceptional situation
in the West Midlands: first, in the West Midlands, both naptan:Street
and naptan:CommonName are displayed on the bus stops, while other
counties (like Warwickshire for example) only display
naptan:CommonName. On the bus stops in Birmingham city centre,
naptan:Street is even the only text being displayed. Second, in the
West Midlands, naptan:CommonName does not uniquely identify a stop:
there might be multiple stops with the same naptan:CommonName.
> I haven't asked the obvious question which is why do this at all?
I think there are a couple of advantages of having the name field populated:
- If you are at a bus stop, you can search for the bus stop at the map
(either visually by looking at the map, or with a search function);
- The same holds if you are instructed to find a bus stop with a
particular name;
- If your navigator guides you to a particular bus stop, you can
visually check if you have found the right one;
- If you don't have GPS signal in the bus, you can check from inside
the bus where you are at the map by looking outside and reading the
bus stop names;
- Public transport planners can generate a list of all stops of a
particular route.
That's what I can think of now, but there are probably many more uses.
> I'm a bit concerned that this might clutter up the transport layer, but I
> don't know which field is used here
The transport layer uses both name (as text next to the stop) and
indicator (in the circle). Do you think Manchester or Liverpool look
currently cluttered? They use the same scheme. In any case, the
argument is not really relevant, I think: clutter is for the renders
to solve, we as mappers should only be concerned with mapping as
accurately as possible ('don't tag for the renderer').
> You should also be aware that this data is is very old - I think at least 5
> years many of the bus stops simply do not exist any longer and many have
> been created that are not here. We might do better to see if we can get a
> more up to date set locally from Centro, before spending too much time on
> this.
I have the impression that most Naptan data is still fine, except for
a couple of areas where large changes have occurred. One of them is
the new Elizabeth hospital, where I have manually added the new bus
stops, and another is the city centre, which you have dealt with.
Probably there are more of such areas, but I did some checks on buses
I took, and the majority of the bus stops are still fine.
I would be hesitant to do a new import, because local mappers have
changed the initially imported data quite a lot, like putting bus
stops on the correct place, and it would be a shame to revert their
work by doing a new naptan import. I think it would be more useful to
have more local mappers surveying bus stops. I also think that if we
have the names visible on the Transport layer then it will be easier
for mappers to spot outdated or incorrect data.
> Or perhaps we should revisit the release of data at a national level?
Populating the name field cannot be done on a national level, because
not in all counties is it desirable that the Street field is included
in the name field.
Please let me know if you have any more questions. I will halt my
edits for at least a week or whatever more time we need to discuss
this.
-- Matthijs
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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
I'm not overly fused either way, but if it was me, I would spend my time updating the Naptan data in OSM. As I understand it the Naptan data gets regular updates, but we have never looked at comparing what is in OSM against the latest Naptan dataset (and this applies to pretty much all OSM imports as well). Rob -- Forwarded message -- From: Brian Prangle Date: 3 February 2014 19:55 Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal To: Matthijs Melissen Cc: talk-gb-westmidlands Hi Matthijs I can't see the point of putting Naptan:Street into the name - it will just repeat information that's already there in the street itself. Common name only is what is used I believe in the rest of the UK. I haven't asked the obvious question which is why do this at all? I'm a bit concerned that this might clutter up the transport layer, but I don't know which field is used here You should also be aware that this data is is very old - I think at least 5 years many of the bus stops simply do not exist any longer and many have been created that are not here. We might do better to see if we can get a more up to date set locally from Centro, before spending too much time on this. Or perhaps we should revisit the release of data at a national level? regards Brian On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:42 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > Dear all, > > As I mentioned in my previous thread, I would like to populate the > name field of bus stops in the West Midlands. > > I would like to use the following format: > > - For stops with blue flags, set > name=First_line_on_pole/Second_line_on_pole (this normally corresponds > to Naptan:Street/Naptan:CommonName). > - For black poles, set name=Text_on_pole (this normally corresponds to > Naptan:CommonName). > - Set local_ref to the two/three character reference (this normally > corresponds to local_ref=YF where Naptan:indicator=Stop YF). > > I have this also documented on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes . > > This proposal only describes how we want the name tag and local_ref > tag to be set. When I'm ready to do a mechanical edit, I will write a > separate proposal to discuss that. > > For now, I will execute only manual edits (in line with the above > proposal) for stops that I have actually surveyed (mainly in the city > center). > > Please let me know if you have any comments. > > Kind regards, > Matthijs > > ___ > Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list > Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands > ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Hi Matthijs I can't see the point of putting Naptan:Street into the name - it will just repeat information that's already there in the street itself. Common name only is what is used I believe in the rest of the UK. I haven't asked the obvious question which is why do this at all? I'm a bit concerned that this might clutter up the transport layer, but I don't know which field is used here You should also be aware that this data is is very old - I think at least 5 years many of the bus stops simply do not exist any longer and many have been created that are not here. We might do better to see if we can get a more up to date set locally from Centro, before spending too much time on this. Or perhaps we should revisit the release of data at a national level? regards Brian On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:42 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > Dear all, > > As I mentioned in my previous thread, I would like to populate the > name field of bus stops in the West Midlands. > > I would like to use the following format: > > - For stops with blue flags, set > name=First_line_on_pole/Second_line_on_pole (this normally corresponds > to Naptan:Street/Naptan:CommonName). > - For black poles, set name=Text_on_pole (this normally corresponds to > Naptan:CommonName). > - Set local_ref to the two/three character reference (this normally > corresponds to local_ref=YF where Naptan:indicator=Stop YF). > > I have this also documented on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes . > > This proposal only describes how we want the name tag and local_ref > tag to be set. When I'm ready to do a mechanical edit, I will write a > separate proposal to discuss that. > > For now, I will execute only manual edits (in line with the above > proposal) for stops that I have actually surveyed (mainly in the city > center). > > Please let me know if you have any comments. > > Kind regards, > Matthijs > > ___ > Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list > Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands > ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus stops: proposal
Dear all, As I mentioned in my previous thread, I would like to populate the name field of bus stops in the West Midlands. I would like to use the following format: - For stops with blue flags, set name=First_line_on_pole/Second_line_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:Street/Naptan:CommonName). - For black poles, set name=Text_on_pole (this normally corresponds to Naptan:CommonName). - Set local_ref to the two/three character reference (this normally corresponds to local_ref=YF where Naptan:indicator=Stop YF). I have this also documented on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes . This proposal only describes how we want the name tag and local_ref tag to be set. When I'm ready to do a mechanical edit, I will write a separate proposal to discuss that. For now, I will execute only manual edits (in line with the above proposal) for stops that I have actually surveyed (mainly in the city center). Please let me know if you have any comments. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
