Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
Hi, http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.9065/-8.1553 Midleton is a useful example of the different types of housing development. I added most of the landuse in the town. Around the centre of the town there are lots of mixed use streets, that aren't readily decipherable from the Bing photos. While I visited the town a fair bit when I was younger, I haven't been there in 20 years, so my local knowledge isn't great. Ignoring the gaps in information, the one section that definitely merits change is Carrigshane, where there are clusters of houses and farm buildings marked landuse=residential > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 05:24:13 +0200 > From: Marc Gemis > > JOSM complains about using landuse=farm. IMHO you have to use farmyard > for the farm house / buildings. Yes, apologies. I have only mapped 7 of these, so haven't really studied it. Colm --- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:11 AM, Colm Moore wrote: >> How all-encompassing should landuse=farmland be ? > > Is it a farm? For the farm house / buildings, one can use landuse=farm. Note > that OSM will over-ride general features (landuse=residential) with specific > features (landuse=grass, leisure=park) > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/53.33614/-6.22972 JOSM complains about using landuse=farm. IMHO you have to use farmyard for the farm house / buildings. m ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
Hi, > Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 01:19:26 +0200 > From: moltonel 3x Combo > > Landuse is a bit tricky in OSM because it has a large part of subjectivity. Agreed, it is more about the general feel of an area than the literal presence or absence of particular features. > How wide does a street need to be before we stop including it in the landuse > ? I think a useful test is whether the adjacent sites have direct access to the road or not. In most areas, adjacent sites will have direct access to the road, but with motorways and other express road, there is substantial detachment between the road and its surrounds. > How all-encompassing should landuse=farmland be ? Is it a farm? For the farm house / buildings, one can use landuse=farm. Note that OSM will over-ride general features (landuse=residential) with specific features (landuse=grass, leisure=park) http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/53.33614/-6.22972 > Should we have lots of single-house landuse=residential in the countryside ? I think yes. For non-farm houses, I think they should get landuse=residential. However, sometimes one has to be pragmatic, especially if the site is greater than about 0.25 hectares, in which case the landuse=residential should be 'shrink-wrapped' around the buildings / other residential features. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52261213#map=17/53.42090/-6.54835 > What's up with landuse=forest vs natural=wood ? Historically, a 'forest' could cover hundreds of square kilometres, a 'wood' would cover a few hectares. OSM users tend to make the distinction along the lines of natural / wild tree cover -v- managed tree cover. > FWIW, I tend to trace buildings first and landuse later (though sometimes I > lose patience). Should we be doing it the other way around? Map the larger object first (village built-up area, housing estate), then add the details (individual houses, etc.)? > Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:35:49 +0200 > From: Rory McCann > > Conversely, I've seen rough landuse=residental drawn over a few houses > which are strung out in rural ireland. Most of the area inside the > area is fields, not residential. I would use landuse=residential for the house and their gardens, but not fields. :) Note that there is agricultural land only 3km from O'Connell Bridge. > That's not accurate. Map the > individual houses, but you don't need a residential landuse for a few > houses in rural areas. > > And not everywhere in OSM needs to be in a "landuse" tag. I disagree. When OSM is 'finished', everywhere should have a landuse, even if it is landuse=desert or landuse=glacier. :) However, I think Mapnik (standard OSM layer) shows too much, especially when it comes to landcover - it makes it difficult to split the exceptional from the non-exceptional. Maybe that is a human-orientated view, but, hey, we're humans! :) > Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 09:13:49 +0200 > From: Marc Gemis > > Isn't every land in use ? How can we calculate the total amount of > square meters of land used for living if you do not draw a > landuse=residential around each small group of houses ? I concur. > Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:43:09 +0100 > From: Dave Corley > > I've mapped landuse=residential out in the country side though not to a > huge extent but as far as I can tell there's no reason not to (open to > correction). What I mean is, if it's a residential property and would get > mapped as such in the city, the fact it's in the countryside should make no > difference, the same tagging applies. I concur. --- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
I've mapped landuse=residential out in the country side though not to a huge extent but as far as I can tell there's no reason not to (open to correction). What I mean is, if it's a residential property and would get mapped as such in the city, the fact it's in the countryside should make no difference, the same tagging applies. I take the point about including farmland in that. That should be mapped separately and tagged appropriately along with farmyard and farm buildings mapping. Dave On 8 Apr 2016 08:15, "Marc Gemis" wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Rory McCann wrote: > > Conversely, I've seen rough landuse=residental drawn over a few houses > > which are strung out in rural ireland. Most of the area inside the > > area is fields, not residential. That's not accurate. Map the > > individual houses, but you don't need a residential landuse for a few > > houses in rural areas. > > > > And not everywhere in OSM needs to be in a "landuse" tag. > > Please explain, I am setting my first baby steps in landuse mapping > and want to know what I should do ? I have heard other opinions as > well, but I'm interested why we should not cover the globe with > landuse/landcover/natural tags. > Isn't every land in use ? How can we calculate the total amount of > square meters of land used for living if you do not draw a > landuse=residential around each small group of houses ? > > regards > > m > > p.s. In Belgium we usually do not have housing estates with a name. So > we need different criteria anyhow on when we draw a > landuse=residential area. > > ___ > Talk-ie mailing list > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie > ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Rory McCann wrote: > Conversely, I've seen rough landuse=residental drawn over a few houses > which are strung out in rural ireland. Most of the area inside the > area is fields, not residential. That's not accurate. Map the > individual houses, but you don't need a residential landuse for a few > houses in rural areas. > > And not everywhere in OSM needs to be in a "landuse" tag. Please explain, I am setting my first baby steps in landuse mapping and want to know what I should do ? I have heard other opinions as well, but I'm interested why we should not cover the globe with landuse/landcover/natural tags. Isn't every land in use ? How can we calculate the total amount of square meters of land used for living if you do not draw a landuse=residential around each small group of houses ? regards m p.s. In Belgium we usually do not have housing estates with a name. So we need different criteria anyhow on when we draw a landuse=residential area. ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Colm, Totally agree. Often there are several housing estates together that have the same name ("Blah Close", "Blah Wood", etc), and that's a good example of needing a "Blah" landuse=residential area. Conversely, I've seen rough landuse=residental drawn over a few houses which are strung out in rural ireland. Most of the area inside the area is fields, not residential. That's not accurate. Map the individual houses, but you don't need a residential landuse for a few houses in rural areas. And not everywhere in OSM needs to be in a "landuse" tag. Rory On 05/04/16 22:45, Colm Moore wrote: > Hi, Caution! Moan ahead! :) > > There has been talk of adopting a project like mapping all schools. > I do think it is worthy. Could I suggest an alternative in landuse, > in particular landuse=residential? We map lots of roads, forests > and farmland, but not so mush residential usage. As it stands, > there are large gaps in most of the cities, in particular city > centres, although very little of Cork (residential) has been done > at all. I accept that in city centres / other older areas it can be > difficult to separate terraced houses from terraced mixed-use > areas, without local knowledge. Separately, I think some users > might be being too coarse in the application of landuse=residential > and enclosing an entire village in one area or a middling-to-large > sized town in two. I think it would be more useful to implement on > a neighbourhood (in older areas) or housing estate level (in newer > areas). I think it would make maintenance easier, especially if an > housing estate has a name as a whole, that isn't necessarily > reflected in the street or townland names, e,g, in Whitehall in > Dublin, the combination of Walnut Rise, Walnut Lawn, Walnut Avenue, > Walnut Park, Walnut Court are, for some reason, known as Courtlands > (Estate). https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132713513 For example, > in Malahide, there are about 25 streets with the name Seabury > (and a few called Lissadell ) and the area is known as Seabury. > The origin of the name is the adjacent, but separate, townland of > Seatown. The neighbouring areas of Yellow Walls and Swords Road are > enclosed in the same landuse=residential area, although at points > there are areas within areas, which I think can only make > maintenance difficult. In a town of 14,000, two landuse=residential > areas cover 90-95% of the population, while immediately next to it > there are several areas used to cover 3-5 house each. Any > thoughts? Thank you > > Colm > > -- - - > > Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead > ___ Talk-ie mailing > list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXBhvlAAoJEOrWdmeZivv2xaMH/1HLFB/we3ljNPUzow75mU4M FOa0IldXGz33qeHDyhL3XpHT2aDVxjtvToEJcNWDXb48WN3VhrZUjtRTe6azYmZ4 eHg2+17pY0LLwNQT8bpACN74CbEAoQMyJ2bxlggrfJsUSpsjoSH5wc1Xhhnju5bC Ld4vuteV303iUwYRkmhnaIUWgdC5znAc+m2kbu6gwJia9+u67Qnil8i2tdm0PS+4 h94TcOHRCwafw3PNfwAK5gukZiGKJu5CN1E9L1jOPk2ySYDflOf+E+Kjs6QlwyRe NOVNiZxw9uoCfWmNSAFYvmvZc+m//P1tEDwapWJ+qM1jfJSaWvpVR+fcV8Onik8= =guRl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
Landuse is a bit tricky in OSM because it has a large part of subjectivity. The residential/retail/commercial/industrial split is a common issue. How wide does a street need to be before we stop including it in the landuse ? How all-encompassing should landuse=farmland be ? Should we have lots of single-house landuse=residential in the countryside ? What's up with landuse=forest vs natural=wood ? Should I start using a multipolygon or stay with shared-nodes closed-ways for now ? These existential questions explain why landuse in OSM is just ok-ish. FWIW, I tend to trace buildings first and landuse later (though sometimes I lose patience). Having a landuse=residential polygon double as a place=locality/neighbourhood is great when you can. I stoped worrying about spliting residential/retail exactly right. For better or worse, the townlands project is making Ireland multipolygon-heavy, so I hesitate less than I used to about using MPs. Most of our landuse=farmland has apparently been mapped by single-contribution landowners and is often of poor quality, but so far I only bother improving it when it interferes with the rest. I adopted the POV that landuse=forest means forestry activity and implies natural=wood when nothing else is tagged. ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
Hi Colm, I've seen what you are referring to. All I can say is what I normally do and that is to leave an area alone until I've had a chance to survey it. Once I gather the street and housing estate and apartment block names, I'll refine the landuse=res by enclosing each in their own boundary where the boundaries are obvious and applying the name to it. I've done this for most of Galway City and several of the larger towns in Galway over the last few years. When I'm out collecting that level of data I'll typically gather address data at the same time too. If I'm at a place and surveying, the chances of me coming back to gather address data separately are pretty slim so I try get that while I'm there. As for enclosing large areas I agree. The caveat to what I said above is that it is dependent on the area being primarily a residential area. An example would be blocks where the ground level is retail but the remaining floors are apartments. The building is mixed use and primarily residential however it is located in a retail area, then I map the area as retail. This would be a great topic to discuss in more detail at the meet up on the 23rd Dave On 5 Apr 2016 21:46, "Colm Moore" wrote: > Hi, > Caution! Moan ahead! :) > > There has been talk of adopting a project like mapping all schools. I do > think it is worthy. > Could I suggest an alternative in landuse, in particular > landuse=residential? We map lots of roads, forests and farmland, but not so > mush residential usage. > As it stands, there are large gaps in most of the cities, in particular > city centres, although very little of Cork (residential) has been done at > all. I accept that in city centres / other older areas it can be difficult > to separate terraced houses from terraced mixed-use areas, without local > knowledge. > Separately, I think some users might be being too coarse in the > application of landuse=residential and enclosing an entire village in one > area or a middling-to-large sized town in two. I think it would be more > useful to implement on a neighbourhood (in older areas) or housing estate > level (in newer areas). I think it would make maintenance easier, > especially if an housing estate has a name as a whole, that isn't > necessarily reflected in the street or townland names, e,g, in Whitehall in > Dublin, the combination of Walnut Rise, Walnut Lawn, Walnut Avenue, Walnut > Park, Walnut Court are, for some reason, known as Courtlands (Estate). > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132713513 > For example, in Malahide, there are about 25 streets with the name Seabury > (and a few called Lissadell ) and the area is known as Seabury. > The origin of the name is the adjacent, but separate, townland of Seatown. > The neighbouring areas of Yellow Walls and Swords Road are enclosed in the > same landuse=residential area, although at points there are areas within > areas, which I think can only make maintenance difficult. In a town of > 14,000, two landuse=residential areas cover 90-95% of the population, while > immediately next to it there are several areas used to cover 3-5 house each. > Any thoughts? > Thank you > > Colm > > > --- > Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead > ___ > Talk-ie mailing list > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie > ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
[OSM-talk-ie] Landuse
Hi, Caution! Moan ahead! :) There has been talk of adopting a project like mapping all schools. I do think it is worthy. Could I suggest an alternative in landuse, in particular landuse=residential? We map lots of roads, forests and farmland, but not so mush residential usage. As it stands, there are large gaps in most of the cities, in particular city centres, although very little of Cork (residential) has been done at all. I accept that in city centres / other older areas it can be difficult to separate terraced houses from terraced mixed-use areas, without local knowledge. Separately, I think some users might be being too coarse in the application of landuse=residential and enclosing an entire village in one area or a middling-to-large sized town in two. I think it would be more useful to implement on a neighbourhood (in older areas) or housing estate level (in newer areas). I think it would make maintenance easier, especially if an housing estate has a name as a whole, that isn't necessarily reflected in the street or townland names, e,g, in Whitehall in Dublin, the combination of Walnut Rise, Walnut Lawn, Walnut Avenue, Walnut Park, Walnut Court are, for some reason, known as Courtlands (Estate). https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132713513 For example, in Malahide, there are about 25 streets with the name Seabury (and a few called Lissadell ) and the area is known as Seabury. The origin of the name is the adjacent, but separate, townland of Seatown. The neighbouring areas of Yellow Walls and Swords Road are enclosed in the same landuse=residential area, although at points there are areas within areas, which I think can only make maintenance difficult. In a town of 14,000, two landuse=residential areas cover 90-95% of the population, while immediately next to it there are several areas used to cover 3-5 house each. Any thoughts? Thank you Colm --- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie