Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Ray wrote: > Ronny Ager-Wick - Develo Ltd. wrote: > > > yes, anyone can actually sell it, but the "SA" part fo the license means: > > *Share Alike* — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you > > may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a > > compatible license. > > [...] > > > In our case, if someone used OSM to produce a paper map, but added lots > > of new roads, I believe this gives us the right to buy one copy and then > > trace it. Similarly if they distributed it electronically, if we legally > > got hold of a copy of their modified OSM map, we could probably import > > it to OSM? What do the legal department say about this? > > I havn't spend much time on license issues, only avoiding to use > copyrightes material myself. So can't give an real answer. You should > ask this on the user mailing list or search the archive / wiki. Guess > these questions have already been raised and answered. > > Ray > We shouldn't enter deliberate errors. That would be considered vandalism. However, since there are plenty of ways to represent reality on the ground as an abstract piece of data (e.g., the number and position of nodes to represent a curved road, or which areas are completed or not), these things can reliably be used to determine whether somebody is using OSM data or not. So we really do not need to add copyright easter eggs into OSM < http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs>. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
Ronny Ager-Wick - Develo Ltd. wrote: > yes, anyone can actually sell it, but the "SA" part fo the license means: > *Share Alike* — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you > may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a > compatible license. [...] > In our case, if someone used OSM to produce a paper map, but added lots > of new roads, I believe this gives us the right to buy one copy and then > trace it. Similarly if they distributed it electronically, if we legally > got hold of a copy of their modified OSM map, we could probably import > it to OSM? What do the legal department say about this? I havn't spend much time on license issues, only avoiding to use copyrightes material myself. So can't give an real answer. You should ask this on the user mailing list or search the archive / wiki. Guess these questions have already been raised and answered. Ray ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
Ray wrote: Ronny Ager-Wick - Develo Ltd. schrieb: I think the best way to detect theft of data is an old and proven one, making certain (privately documented) mistakes on purpose, so you can check if the map in question includes it. As most of you well know, it's not possible to copyright reality, but fiction (erroneous data is fiction) is copyrightable. However, I'm not sure what's the consensus for introducing errors on purpose? We are creating a map of reality, not one of errors. If someone notice your error he will hopefully correct it and you have no pointer anymore. Keep in mind, that open also means that anybody can use the data as he likes, even sell it. He only has to mention the creator (openstreetmap is enough) and the license (CC-by-SA). Ray, yes, anyone can actually sell it, but the "SA" part fo the license means: *Share Alike* --- If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license. In other words, you have to redistribute it under the same terms, which again allows anyone you sold it can redistribute and sell it too, so the commercial value of a modified version is minimal. My interpretation is that if some company who sells maps are using OSM data, then modify it, these modifications or additions need to be available undert the same license, so that it can be imported back into OSM. This is why I find it useful to know whether someone are using OSM or not. I agree, it's more than slightly awkward to introduce errors on purpose. Maybe we should stick to "peculiarities". I know I've added minor roads that probably never would be added to commercial maps, but they are still roads, and they reflect reality. I can easily use these to spot derivative work. I know intentional errors this has been used my mapmakers for a long time as a way to spot derivative work. I talked to someone a whole ago who made a traffic camera map. They introduced a few errors on purpose (added non-existent cameras to the map), caught Microsoft stealing their data and decided to cvhallenge them on that. Needless to say the company spent the remainder of its life in court, so the exercise wasn't particularly useful. In our case, if someone used OSM to produce a paper map, but added lots of new roads, I believe this gives us the right to buy one copy and then trace it. Similarly if they distributed it electronically, if we legally got hold of a copy of their modified OSM map, we could probably import it to OSM? What do the legal department say about this? Ronny. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
Ronny Ager-Wick - Develo Ltd. schrieb: > I think the best way to detect theft of data is an old and proven one, > making certain (privately documented) mistakes on purpose, so you can > check if the map in question includes it. As most of you well know, it's > not possible to copyright reality, but fiction (erroneous data is > fiction) is copyrightable. > However, I'm not sure what's the consensus for introducing errors on > purpose? We are creating a map of reality, not one of errors. If someone notice your error he will hopefully correct it and you have no pointer anymore. Keep in mind, that open also means that anybody can use the data as he likes, even sell it. He only has to mention the creator (openstreetmap is enough) and the license (CC-by-SA). Ray ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
I think the best way to detect theft of data is an old and proven one, making certain (privately documented) mistakes on purpose, so you can check if the map in question includes it. As most of you well know, it's not possible to copyright reality, but fiction (erroneous data is fiction) is copyrightable. However, I'm not sure what's the consensus for introducing errors on purpose? For them to be effective, they should not be announced publicly, so I guess each individual contributor would have to make a couple or mistakes in their areas and keep them for themselves. OR, for integrity, a few of us may sign up as "intentional mistake database maintainers", where each contributor sends their the node/way number or a special comment they made on their mistakes to a random person on this list. This was, at least two people will know about each mistake, but the security of the scheme is not compromised as nobody knows about every mistake made. Hehe, maybe I'm getting a bit too much secret agent here, but it *would* work! :) Ronny. maning sambale wrote: Out of simple curiosity, is there a way to detect that some of our data was conflated into the navteq ph coverage? I believe navteq contracted a local company to update Philippine data. Looking at their maps, the road data for Metro Manila and surrounding area seems good and somewhat up-to-date (though I can easily spot several out-of-date portions). For instance they barely pass my Bonifacio Global City test but fail the C-5 extension test. Coastline data is pretty bad, on the other hand. In terms of coverage, I think they can match Google's Map Maker data. Is navteq's data similiar to G's MMaker outside Metro Manila? ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 12:55 PM, maning sambale wrote: > Out of simple curiosity, is there a way to detect that some of our > data was conflated into the navteq ph coverage? I believe navteq > contracted a local company to update Philippine data. > Based on the areas I've seen, I don't think they got any data from OSM. And it doesn't match any other dataset I've seen (Google, Mapcental, etc.). I think they did their own tracing based on satellite imagery Nokia bought for itself. If you look at the data coverage in OVI Maps, there's a well-defined line just north of Tagaytay where their coverage of detailed roads abruptly ends. This indicates that the roads were traced from satellite imagery (likely DigitalGlobe, since DG has nice square images) or aerial imagery. Google doesn't have satellite imagery this far south of Cavite so I'm sure Navteq didn't trace from Google's imagery. > > Looking at their maps, the road data for Metro Manila and surrounding > area > > seems good and somewhat up-to-date (though I can easily spot several > > out-of-date portions). For instance they barely pass my Bonifacio Global > > City test but fail the C-5 extension test. Coastline data is pretty bad, > on > > the other hand. > > > > In terms of coverage, I think they can match Google's Map Maker data. > Is navteq's data similiar to G's MMaker outside Metro Manila? > Google Map Maker still has better coverage than Navteq but I was surprised to see detailed roads for Boracay in OVI Maps. But since they don't show POIs on the map (only searchable), I can't tell if they have extensive POI data as well. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
Out of simple curiosity, is there a way to detect that some of our data was conflated into the navteq ph coverage? I believe navteq contracted a local company to update Philippine data. > Looking at their maps, the road data for Metro Manila and surrounding area > seems good and somewhat up-to-date (though I can easily spot several > out-of-date portions). For instance they barely pass my Bonifacio Global > City test but fail the C-5 extension test. Coastline data is pretty bad, on > the other hand. > > In terms of coverage, I think they can match Google's Map Maker data. Is navteq's data similiar to G's MMaker outside Metro Manila? > > ___ > talk-ph mailing list > talk-ph@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph > > -- cheers, maning -- "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] Navteq/Nokia finally shows their mapping data for the Philippines
I have been checking out http://maps.ovi.com and until recently, Nokia had only been showing the public domain VMAP0 data (which is data only good for 1:1,000,000 scale maps--meaning low resolution). Nokia announced recently that they would be offering free turn-by-turn navigation and I guess, shortly after that, they enabled Navteq's Philippine data to be shown on the Ovi Maps website. Looking at their maps, the road data for Metro Manila and surrounding area seems good and somewhat up-to-date (though I can easily spot several out-of-date portions). For instance they barely pass my Bonifacio Global City test but fail the C-5 extension test. Coastline data is pretty bad, on the other hand. In terms of coverage, I think they can match Google's Map Maker data. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
