Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
General reply to this thread rather than anyone in particular. Regarding bearing, that's one we forgot to import. Filtering by Element was bad, should have filtered by a bbox. It'd have been useful to pull in the CUS BusStopType as some tag, rather than completely ignoring it. And we also now need tools to be able to merge missing NaPTAN data into the OSM nodes, sounds like more fun :) -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Andy That's about it! Thanks Roger -Original Message- From: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) [mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com] Sent: 31 March 2009 23:44 To: ro...@slevin.plus.com; 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment Roger Slevin [mailto:ro...@slevin.plus.com] wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 11:20 PM >To: 'Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)'; 'Brian Prangle'; Talk-gb- >westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas >Wood' >Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Andy > >"Custom and Practice" stops - that is stops which are not physically marked >- are a common feature in many parts of the country ... less so within >Metropolitan areas than in rural ones. And many are not "signed in one >direction to represent both directions" - they are without any sign. These >unmarked stops are stop type CUS in NaPTAN. I appreciate that their >representation on a map might be conceptually challenging ... but they are >essential points as far as bus passengers are concerned! I have no problem representing them on a map and indeed the whole concept is fine. Our challenge is one of verification. We essentially only put data in OSM that is physically there on the ground. However at least these stops have the "CUS" tag so it should be possible to verify that busses stop at the location and the evidence on the ground might then be the pile of fag ends in the gutter ;-) Cheers Andy > >Roger > > >-Original Message- >From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org >[mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson >(blackadder-lists) >Sent: 31 March 2009 23:11 >To: 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Using http://sautter.com/map I did a comparison of the precisely positioned >stops I mapped this morning in the Aldridge area. Assuming Google has the >locations the same as the NaPTAN data then I would say about one in 5 >NaPTAN >stops has something wrong with the location. Mostly a stop is displaced >along the street. These errors are as much as 30m. > >One interesting question relates to stops on the ground that exist only on >one side of the street but state they also pickup/drop on the opposite side >of the street. The NapTan data contains two stops when on the ground there >is only one physical (pole or shelter). In general the NaPTAN data appears >to show the stops staggered on either side of the street when in practice >passengers are going to wait opposite the bus stop sign/shelter. At the >moment I'm mapping these with one node and an opposite=yes tag on them. >There is no way to map the stop on the opposite side as it doesn't >physically exist. So what to do about the NaPTAN data in this case. > >Cheers > >Andy > > >>-Original Message- >>From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >>westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >>Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >>To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >tran...@openstreetmap.org; >>Thomas Wood >>Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment >> >>Thomas >> >>I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly >>the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess >>it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus >stops >>are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green >Village >>for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several >>metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on >>the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >>correct it. >> >>Regards >> >>Brian > > > >___ >Talk-transit mailing list >Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Roger Slevin [mailto:ro...@slevin.plus.com] wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 11:20 PM >To: 'Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)'; 'Brian Prangle'; Talk-gb- >westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas >Wood' >Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Andy > >"Custom and Practice" stops - that is stops which are not physically marked >- are a common feature in many parts of the country ... less so within >Metropolitan areas than in rural ones. And many are not "signed in one >direction to represent both directions" - they are without any sign. These >unmarked stops are stop type CUS in NaPTAN. I appreciate that their >representation on a map might be conceptually challenging ... but they are >essential points as far as bus passengers are concerned! I have no problem representing them on a map and indeed the whole concept is fine. Our challenge is one of verification. We essentially only put data in OSM that is physically there on the ground. However at least these stops have the "CUS" tag so it should be possible to verify that busses stop at the location and the evidence on the ground might then be the pile of fag ends in the gutter ;-) Cheers Andy > >Roger > > >-Original Message- >From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org >[mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson >(blackadder-lists) >Sent: 31 March 2009 23:11 >To: 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Using http://sautter.com/map I did a comparison of the precisely positioned >stops I mapped this morning in the Aldridge area. Assuming Google has the >locations the same as the NaPTAN data then I would say about one in 5 >NaPTAN >stops has something wrong with the location. Mostly a stop is displaced >along the street. These errors are as much as 30m. > >One interesting question relates to stops on the ground that exist only on >one side of the street but state they also pickup/drop on the opposite side >of the street. The NapTan data contains two stops when on the ground there >is only one physical (pole or shelter). In general the NaPTAN data appears >to show the stops staggered on either side of the street when in practice >passengers are going to wait opposite the bus stop sign/shelter. At the >moment I'm mapping these with one node and an opposite=yes tag on them. >There is no way to map the stop on the opposite side as it doesn't >physically exist. So what to do about the NaPTAN data in this case. > >Cheers > >Andy > > >>-Original Message- >>From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >>westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >>Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >>To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >tran...@openstreetmap.org; >>Thomas Wood >>Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment >> >>Thomas >> >>I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly >>the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess >>it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus >stops >>are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green >Village >>for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several >>metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on >>the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >>correct it. >> >>Regards >> >>Brian > > > >___ >Talk-transit mailing list >Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Andy "Custom and Practice" stops - that is stops which are not physically marked - are a common feature in many parts of the country ... less so within Metropolitan areas than in rural ones. And many are not "signed in one direction to represent both directions" - they are without any sign. These unmarked stops are stop type CUS in NaPTAN. I appreciate that their representation on a map might be conceptually challenging ... but they are essential points as far as bus passengers are concerned! Roger -Original Message- From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Sent: 31 March 2009 23:11 To: 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment Using http://sautter.com/map I did a comparison of the precisely positioned stops I mapped this morning in the Aldridge area. Assuming Google has the locations the same as the NaPTAN data then I would say about one in 5 NaPTAN stops has something wrong with the location. Mostly a stop is displaced along the street. These errors are as much as 30m. One interesting question relates to stops on the ground that exist only on one side of the street but state they also pickup/drop on the opposite side of the street. The NapTan data contains two stops when on the ground there is only one physical (pole or shelter). In general the NaPTAN data appears to show the stops staggered on either side of the street when in practice passengers are going to wait opposite the bus stop sign/shelter. At the moment I'm mapping these with one node and an opposite=yes tag on them. There is no way to map the stop on the opposite side as it doesn't physically exist. So what to do about the NaPTAN data in this case. Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; >Thomas Wood >Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Thomas > >I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly >the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess >it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops >are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village >for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several >metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on >the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >correct it. > >Regards > >Brian ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Using http://sautter.com/map I did a comparison of the precisely positioned stops I mapped this morning in the Aldridge area. Assuming Google has the locations the same as the NaPTAN data then I would say about one in 5 NaPTAN stops has something wrong with the location. Mostly a stop is displaced along the street. These errors are as much as 30m. One interesting question relates to stops on the ground that exist only on one side of the street but state they also pickup/drop on the opposite side of the street. The NapTan data contains two stops when on the ground there is only one physical (pole or shelter). In general the NaPTAN data appears to show the stops staggered on either side of the street when in practice passengers are going to wait opposite the bus stop sign/shelter. At the moment I'm mapping these with one node and an opposite=yes tag on them. There is no way to map the stop on the opposite side as it doesn't physically exist. So what to do about the NaPTAN data in this case. Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; >Thomas Wood >Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Thomas > >I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly >the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess >it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops >are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village >for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several >metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on >the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >correct it. > >Regards > >Brian ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Andy "Town" is an optional field in NaPTAN and is either not used or is used inconsistently ... it was included in the NaPTAN spec for legacy reasons, but is not used in any mainstream information systems. I suspect that the missing stops may well not have this field populated - or populated in an inconsistent way. Your comments on bus stop locations are noted - and I broadly agree. My point was that shelters in many places in my experience are not closely related to the bus stopping position - and therefore they should be mapped as a piece of street furniture, but not used per se to define a bus stop location. There are even bus shelters which no longer have any operational function other than to earn revenue for the advertising company that owns them! Roger -Original Message- From: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) [mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com] Sent: 31 March 2009 22:50 To: ro...@slevin.plus.com; 'Peter Miller' Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; 'Brian Prangle' Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment Roger Slevin [mailto:ro...@slevin.plus.com] wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 10:16 PM >To: 'Peter Miller'; 'Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)' >Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >'Brian Prangle' >Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Peter > >I think it is important to separate out the infrastructure of shelters from >the function of the bus stop - the shelter is often located where it can be >fitted in ... and it can be mapped as a physical object. A bus stop >represents a function - the boarding or alighting of passengers. It may be >indicated in the physical world by a "pole in the ground" - which might be >close to the roadside, or might be at the back of the footway. In my view >the "stop" that NaPTAN records represent is the point at which passengers >board or alight ... either the point marked by the pole in the ground if it >is close to the roadside, or a similar point which might be indicated by a >post displaced from the roadside (or it might simply be a point which is >not >marked - but is clearly recognised by custom and practice. If there is a >lay-by, then this is a widening of the road carriageway - the bus stop >location should still be close to the edge of the footway at the back of >the >lay-by. Taking your three (?) possibilities, I think all this means that >it >is what you labelled "4". In reality the buses mainly stop where the people are standing waiting for them and in practice of course they generally stand by the stop or at the front of the shelter ;-) Jo public doesn't really care (and nor do we in mapping) where the bus doors are supposed to open. The main caveat to this is that I generally find a bus will pull fully into a lay-by if its empty and the driver can see that passengers are waiting, otherwise they ignore the lay-by and hold up traffic! I've come across in rural areas where the shelter and the associated stop are at entirely different locations but that doesn't appear to be the case in Birmingham. So I can imagine that in some places the chelter will be one node and the bus stop another. > >By the way - for those importing data for Birmingham, there was mention >earlier this evening of "the marker for stops in Birmingham" in the context >of stops that might be missing. I am unclear what this marker is - as >NaPTAN does not contain a marker for Birmingham, per se. I can think of >ways this might have been determined using the NPTG locality association - >is that what has been done? If so the missing stops may simply be in a >child locality which hasn't been correctly associated with Birmingham as >the >parent locality. The NaPTAN has a "Town" element and those with BIRMINGHAM on that element was filtered for the trial import. See the right hand RAW data column at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Birmingham_Trial Its not a big deal if we missed some. The purpose of the trial import was to have something to work with to iron out the questions before we roll out across the country. Cheers Andy > >Best wishes > >Roger > >-Original Message- >From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org >[mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Miller >Sent: 31 March 2009 20:51 >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) >Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >'Brian Prangle' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > >On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter >> Miller wrote: >>> >>> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >>> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >>> right. >> >> I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to >> see what >
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
FWIW, the stop locations given in GTFS data sets are also defined to be the "location where passengers board or disembark from a transit vehicle". Cheers, Joe On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Roger Slevin wrote: > Peter > > I think it is important to separate out the infrastructure of shelters from > the function of the bus stop - the shelter is often located where it can be > fitted in ... and it can be mapped as a physical object. A bus stop > represents a function - the boarding or alighting of passengers. It may be > indicated in the physical world by a "pole in the ground" - which might be > close to the roadside, or might be at the back of the footway. In my view > the "stop" that NaPTAN records represent is the point at which passengers > board or alight ... either the point marked by the pole in the ground if it > is close to the roadside, or a similar point which might be indicated by a > post displaced from the roadside (or it might simply be a point which is not > marked - but is clearly recognised by custom and practice. If there is a > lay-by, then this is a widening of the road carriageway - the bus stop > location should still be close to the edge of the footway at the back of the > lay-by. Taking your three (?) possibilities, I think all this means that it > is what you labelled "4". > > By the way - for those importing data for Birmingham, there was mention > earlier this evening of "the marker for stops in Birmingham" in the context > of stops that might be missing. I am unclear what this marker is - as > NaPTAN does not contain a marker for Birmingham, per se. I can think of > ways this might have been determined using the NPTG locality association - > is that what has been done? If so the missing stops may simply be in a > child locality which hasn't been correctly associated with Birmingham as the > parent locality. > > Best wishes > > Roger > > -Original Message- > From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org > [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Miller > Sent: 31 March 2009 20:51 > To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) > Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; > 'Brian Prangle' > Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > > On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter >> Miller wrote: >>> >>> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >>> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >>> right. >> >> I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to >> see what >> accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today >> started to be >> more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. >> I should >> be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this >> Legend HCx I >> use). > > If you are getting that precise it will be useful to agree where the > stop should be. We might have a number of points > > 1) A pole and/or a shelter > 3) Optionally a lay-by where the vehicle stops > 4) A spot where one would expect to stand to get onto the bus > (opposite the door). > > Can I suggest that it might be appropriate to use the position of the > pole and/or shelter as the reference for the bus stop and applications > should then assume that the bus stops at the road edge with its doors > at the nearest point to the shelter. If that is not the case then > possibly we need a 'stopping point' node next to the road to show > where the front doors of the vehicle would be. > > Should we also create a 'lay_by' or 'bay' attribute to say if there is > a place for the vehicle to pull in to pick up passenger. It might be > neat to be able to describe what sort of facility is provided. In some > places it will be a pull-in pull-out bay, in others it might be a pull > up, reverse out bay. If we have that information then future rendering > engines will be able to get it right. > > This is what I mean by pull-in pull-out > http://www.palmengineering.com/images/busBay4.jpg > > And this is a Pull-in reverse-out one > http://www.broward.org/bct/images/browardcentralterminal.gif > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter > > >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Andy >> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Cheers Andy > -Original Message- > From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- > westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle > Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM > To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >>> tran...@openstreetmap.org > ; > Thomas Wood > Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > Thomas > > I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in > exactly > the same way ours is
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Roger Slevin [mailto:ro...@slevin.plus.com] wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 10:16 PM >To: 'Peter Miller'; 'Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)' >Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >'Brian Prangle' >Subject: RE: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Peter > >I think it is important to separate out the infrastructure of shelters from >the function of the bus stop - the shelter is often located where it can be >fitted in ... and it can be mapped as a physical object. A bus stop >represents a function - the boarding or alighting of passengers. It may be >indicated in the physical world by a "pole in the ground" - which might be >close to the roadside, or might be at the back of the footway. In my view >the "stop" that NaPTAN records represent is the point at which passengers >board or alight ... either the point marked by the pole in the ground if it >is close to the roadside, or a similar point which might be indicated by a >post displaced from the roadside (or it might simply be a point which is >not >marked - but is clearly recognised by custom and practice. If there is a >lay-by, then this is a widening of the road carriageway - the bus stop >location should still be close to the edge of the footway at the back of >the >lay-by. Taking your three (?) possibilities, I think all this means that >it >is what you labelled "4". In reality the buses mainly stop where the people are standing waiting for them and in practice of course they generally stand by the stop or at the front of the shelter ;-) Jo public doesn't really care (and nor do we in mapping) where the bus doors are supposed to open. The main caveat to this is that I generally find a bus will pull fully into a lay-by if its empty and the driver can see that passengers are waiting, otherwise they ignore the lay-by and hold up traffic! I've come across in rural areas where the shelter and the associated stop are at entirely different locations but that doesn't appear to be the case in Birmingham. So I can imagine that in some places the chelter will be one node and the bus stop another. > >By the way - for those importing data for Birmingham, there was mention >earlier this evening of "the marker for stops in Birmingham" in the context >of stops that might be missing. I am unclear what this marker is - as >NaPTAN does not contain a marker for Birmingham, per se. I can think of >ways this might have been determined using the NPTG locality association - >is that what has been done? If so the missing stops may simply be in a >child locality which hasn't been correctly associated with Birmingham as >the >parent locality. The NaPTAN has a "Town" element and those with BIRMINGHAM on that element was filtered for the trial import. See the right hand RAW data column at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Birmingham_Trial Its not a big deal if we missed some. The purpose of the trial import was to have something to work with to iron out the questions before we roll out across the country. Cheers Andy > >Best wishes > >Roger > >-Original Message- >From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org >[mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Miller >Sent: 31 March 2009 20:51 >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) >Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; >'Brian Prangle' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > >On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter >> Miller wrote: >>> >>> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >>> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >>> right. >> >> I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to >> see what >> accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today >> started to be >> more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. >> I should >> be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this >> Legend HCx I >> use). > >If you are getting that precise it will be useful to agree where the >stop should be. We might have a number of points > >1) A pole and/or a shelter >3) Optionally a lay-by where the vehicle stops >4) A spot where one would expect to stand to get onto the bus >(opposite the door). > >Can I suggest that it might be appropriate to use the position of the >pole and/or shelter as the reference for the bus stop and applications >should then assume that the bus stops at the road edge with its doors >at the nearest point to the shelter. If that is not the case then >possibly we need a 'stopping point' node next to the road to show >where the front doors of the vehicle would be. > >Should we also create a 'lay_by' or 'bay' attribute to say if there is >a place for the vehicle to pull in to pick up passenger. It might be >neat to be able to de
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Peter I think it is important to separate out the infrastructure of shelters from the function of the bus stop - the shelter is often located where it can be fitted in ... and it can be mapped as a physical object. A bus stop represents a function - the boarding or alighting of passengers. It may be indicated in the physical world by a "pole in the ground" - which might be close to the roadside, or might be at the back of the footway. In my view the "stop" that NaPTAN records represent is the point at which passengers board or alight ... either the point marked by the pole in the ground if it is close to the roadside, or a similar point which might be indicated by a post displaced from the roadside (or it might simply be a point which is not marked - but is clearly recognised by custom and practice. If there is a lay-by, then this is a widening of the road carriageway - the bus stop location should still be close to the edge of the footway at the back of the lay-by. Taking your three (?) possibilities, I think all this means that it is what you labelled "4". By the way - for those importing data for Birmingham, there was mention earlier this evening of "the marker for stops in Birmingham" in the context of stops that might be missing. I am unclear what this marker is - as NaPTAN does not contain a marker for Birmingham, per se. I can think of ways this might have been determined using the NPTG locality association - is that what has been done? If so the missing stops may simply be in a child locality which hasn't been correctly associated with Birmingham as the parent locality. Best wishes Roger -Original Message- From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Miller Sent: 31 March 2009 20:51 To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; 'Brian Prangle' Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Miller wrote: >> >> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >> right. > > I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to > see what > accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today > started to be > more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. > I should > be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this > Legend HCx I > use). If you are getting that precise it will be useful to agree where the stop should be. We might have a number of points 1) A pole and/or a shelter 3) Optionally a lay-by where the vehicle stops 4) A spot where one would expect to stand to get onto the bus (opposite the door). Can I suggest that it might be appropriate to use the position of the pole and/or shelter as the reference for the bus stop and applications should then assume that the bus stops at the road edge with its doors at the nearest point to the shelter. If that is not the case then possibly we need a 'stopping point' node next to the road to show where the front doors of the vehicle would be. Should we also create a 'lay_by' or 'bay' attribute to say if there is a place for the vehicle to pull in to pick up passenger. It might be neat to be able to describe what sort of facility is provided. In some places it will be a pull-in pull-out bay, in others it might be a pull up, reverse out bay. If we have that information then future rendering engines will be able to get it right. This is what I mean by pull-in pull-out http://www.palmengineering.com/images/busBay4.jpg And this is a Pull-in reverse-out one http://www.broward.org/bct/images/browardcentralterminal.gif Regards, Peter > > > Cheers > > Andy > >> >> >> Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Andy >>> -Original Message- From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >> tran...@openstreetmap.org ; Thomas Wood Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment Thomas I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to w
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter Miller wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 8:51 PM >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) >Cc: 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >tran...@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > >On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter >> Miller wrote: >>> >>> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >>> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >>> right. >> >> I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to >> see what >> accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today >> started to be >> more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. >> I should >> be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this >> Legend HCx I >> use). > >If you are getting that precise it will be useful to agree where the >stop should be. We might have a number of points > >1) A pole and/or a shelter >3) Optionally a lay-by where the vehicle stops >4) A spot where one would expect to stand to get onto the bus >(opposite the door). I'm doing what's logical, which is to get as close as I can to take the picture of the sign. I'll be within the stated accuracy of that. Mostly the sign on shelters is at the end facing the arriving bus, but not always. If its at the other end I tend to need to take two photos, one of the Asset number which is usually on the side facing the direction of traffic and another for the route/info sign. In which case I tend to drop the node between the two points. For posts its easy to cycle up till the bike wheel touches the post (hence the within 0.5m) > >Can I suggest that it might be appropriate to use the position of the >pole and/or shelter as the reference for the bus stop and applications >should then assume that the bus stops at the road edge with its doors >at the nearest point to the shelter. If that is not the case then >possibly we need a 'stopping point' node next to the road to show >where the front doors of the vehicle would be. Buses in the midlands rarely stop where they are supposed to ;-) > >Should we also create a 'lay_by' or 'bay' attribute to say if there is >a place for the vehicle to pull in to pick up passenger. It might be >neat to be able to describe what sort of facility is provided. In some >places it will be a pull-in pull-out bay, in others it might be a pull >up, reverse out bay. If we have that information then future rendering >engines will be able to get it right. That's a feature of the road, not the bus stop itself. Ideally we should have a node on the highway with a lay-by tag but we get into left side right side issues with that. For now I'm ignoring lay-bys' and other vehicle positioning aspects. Cheers Andy > >This is what I mean by pull-in pull-out >http://www.palmengineering.com/images/busBay4.jpg > >And this is a Pull-in reverse-out one >http://www.broward.org/bct/images/browardcentralterminal.gif > > > > >Regards, > > > >Peter > > >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Andy >> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Cheers Andy > -Original Message- > From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- > westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle > Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM > To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >>> tran...@openstreetmap.org > ; > Thomas Wood > Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > Thomas > > I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in > exactly > the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I > guess > it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the > bus stops > are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green > Village > for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by > several > metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we > know on > the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge > to > correct it. > > Regards > > Brian ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit >> >> ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
On 31 Mar 2009, at 20:22, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Miller wrote: >> >> 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >> significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >> right. > > I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to > see what > accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today > started to be > more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. > I should > be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this > Legend HCx I > use). If you are getting that precise it will be useful to agree where the stop should be. We might have a number of points 1) A pole and/or a shelter 3) Optionally a lay-by where the vehicle stops 4) A spot where one would expect to stand to get onto the bus (opposite the door). Can I suggest that it might be appropriate to use the position of the pole and/or shelter as the reference for the bus stop and applications should then assume that the bus stops at the road edge with its doors at the nearest point to the shelter. If that is not the case then possibly we need a 'stopping point' node next to the road to show where the front doors of the vehicle would be. Should we also create a 'lay_by' or 'bay' attribute to say if there is a place for the vehicle to pull in to pick up passenger. It might be neat to be able to describe what sort of facility is provided. In some places it will be a pull-in pull-out bay, in others it might be a pull up, reverse out bay. If we have that information then future rendering engines will be able to get it right. This is what I mean by pull-in pull-out http://www.palmengineering.com/images/busBay4.jpg And this is a Pull-in reverse-out one http://www.broward.org/bct/images/browardcentralterminal.gif Regards, Peter > > > Cheers > > Andy > >> >> >> Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Andy >>> -Original Message- From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >> tran...@openstreetmap.org ; Thomas Wood Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment Thomas I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to correct it. Regards Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Talk-transit mailing list >>> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
Peter Miller [mailto:petermille...@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Peter Miller wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 6:16 PM >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) >Cc: 'Brian Prangle'; talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >tran...@openstreetmap.org; 'Thomas Wood' >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > > >On 31 Mar 2009, at 13:23, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> I've already started correcting data like this. I too have noted >> that some >> stops are not correctly positioned in relation to the road they are >> on. >> Where we only have a single trace along a road they could be correct >> but the >> ones I looked at last night where we have plenty of traces (main >> road) were >> in some cases either too far back or too close to the centreline of >> the >> road. I also fond some possible referencing errors for bus stop >> pairs on >> either side of the road but need to resurvey as a double check. >> >> As of my mapping session this morning I'm taking my bike right up to >> the >> stop and taking the photo from directly under the sign. That should >> help see >> what sort of positional errors exist in the data. The only problem >> is that >> I'm mapping Walsall and so need more imported data before I'll >> know ;-) >> > >Import looks good. A few points: > >1) The bearing is useful to ensure that the stop is put on the correct >side of the street) . Normally the stop will already be on the correct >side using the lat-long, but if the stop in misplaced by poor GPS then >we could place it on the wrong side. I did find one that was on the >wrong side of the street in the OSM environment using the bearing from >the official data. Havent seen much of a problem of this as yet but your point noted. > >2) Some Naptan records seem to be missing in OSM. In the case where >there is already a bus stop in the right place is the Naptan record >just being deleted in the review pass? If so then important data for >maintenance is being lost. I would suggest that the two records are >merged to ensure that there are NaPTAN codes for every stop. I'm not deleting any NaPTAN data but instead merging my data onto the NaPTAN nodes and if necessary moving the final node a bit where it needs it. I agree that we don't want to loose any of the imported data. > >3) I find it interesting that in some places OSM has bus stops that >are not in NaPTAN, that might be because they have been removed >recently or be an omission in NaPTAN. I've spotted several too. Definitely on the ground so looks like the NaPTAN data is missing or for some reason they don't have a "Birmingham" value which Edgemaster used for the initial filter. > >4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some >significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is >right. I've noted this too. I'm going to do a precise check in my area to see what accuracy I place on the NaPTAN positions. I've also from today started to be more precise about getting the position of bus stops when I survey. I should be within 0.5m +/- the GPS accuracy (generally sub 5m with this Legend HCx I use). Cheers Andy > > >Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. > > > >Regards, > > > >> Cheers >> >> Andy >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >>> westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >>> Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >>> To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk- >tran...@openstreetmap.org >>> ; >>> Thomas Wood >>> Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment >>> >>> Thomas >>> >>> I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in >>> exactly >>> the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I >>> guess >>> it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the >>> bus stops >>> are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green >>> Village >>> for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by >>> several >>> metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we >>> know on >>> the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >>> correct it. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Brian >> >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-transit mailing list >> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
On 31 Mar 2009, at 13:23, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > I've already started correcting data like this. I too have noted > that some > stops are not correctly positioned in relation to the road they are > on. > Where we only have a single trace along a road they could be correct > but the > ones I looked at last night where we have plenty of traces (main > road) were > in some cases either too far back or too close to the centreline of > the > road. I also fond some possible referencing errors for bus stop > pairs on > either side of the road but need to resurvey as a double check. > > As of my mapping session this morning I'm taking my bike right up to > the > stop and taking the photo from directly under the sign. That should > help see > what sort of positional errors exist in the data. The only problem > is that > I'm mapping Walsall and so need more imported data before I'll > know ;-) > Import looks good. A few points: 1) The bearing is useful to ensure that the stop is put on the correct side of the street) . Normally the stop will already be on the correct side using the lat-long, but if the stop in misplaced by poor GPS then we could place it on the wrong side. I did find one that was on the wrong side of the street in the OSM environment using the bearing from the official data. 2) Some Naptan records seem to be missing in OSM. In the case where there is already a bus stop in the right place is the Naptan record just being deleted in the review pass? If so then important data for maintenance is being lost. I would suggest that the two records are merged to ensure that there are NaPTAN codes for every stop. 3) I find it interesting that in some places OSM has bus stops that are not in NaPTAN, that might be because they have been removed recently or be an omission in NaPTAN. 4) I notice that sometimes the NaPTAN stop and the OSM one are some significant distance apart which begs the question about which one is right. Anyway, it looks like the detective work is now starts! Great work. Regards, > Cheers > > Andy > >> -Original Message- >> From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >> westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >> Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >> To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >> ; >> Thomas Wood >> Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment >> >> Thomas >> >> I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in >> exactly >> the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I >> guess >> it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the >> bus stops >> are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green >> Village >> for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by >> several >> metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we >> know on >> the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >> correct it. >> >> Regards >> >> Brian > > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@googlemail.com] wrote: >Sent: 31 March 2009 9:34 AM >To: Thomas Wood >Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; Talk- >gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN import starts - >Birmingham trial area first > > > > I've had an initial look . We seem to have a pretty big problem in >alignment > > in the City Centre (probably because of our estimations arising >from crap > > GPS traces)- so I've not done any editing/merging until we agree an > > approach. > > > Yeah, I was looking at the city centre a little before the import, > wasnt sure who to blame. (Google maps also use naptan data, so if you > compare the points with the aerial view, you can see they're a bit > off) - We still need a good way of aligning them though without > referring to them. > > > > Lots of the other data hasn't imported completely yet (lots of > > naptan nodes but no data tagged) so I'll wait and take another >look. > > > All data was uploaded as of about 10pm last night. If you find any > elements that look like glitches in the conversion, please report >them > to me. > >Looks OK now > > > > > > We also need to agree on the verified/unverified tag - do we delete >or change > > the yes/no value? > > > The idea was to delete it. I agree unverified:no is just plain >counter-intertuitive > I've been deleting where I already have a stop in the db and have merged the data to the naptan node. Where my nodes are some way off the naptan nodes I'm leaving them alone until a resurvey check. Cheers Andy > > > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment
I've already started correcting data like this. I too have noted that some stops are not correctly positioned in relation to the road they are on. Where we only have a single trace along a road they could be correct but the ones I looked at last night where we have plenty of traces (main road) were in some cases either too far back or too close to the centreline of the road. I also fond some possible referencing errors for bus stop pairs on either side of the road but need to resurvey as a double check. As of my mapping session this morning I'm taking my bike right up to the stop and taking the photo from directly under the sign. That should help see what sort of positional errors exist in the data. The only problem is that I'm mapping Walsall and so need more imported data before I'll know ;-) Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- >westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brian Prangle >Sent: 31 March 2009 9:46 AM >To: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org; >Thomas Wood >Subject: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Naptan alignment > >Thomas > >I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly >the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess >it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops >are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village >for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several >metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on >the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to >correct it. > >Regards > >Brian ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan alignment
In message Brian Prangle wrote: > Thomas > I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly > the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess it's > down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops are > in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village for > example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several metres. > Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on the > ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to correct it. > Please hold open the possibility that your improvements to NaPTAN can be fed back to the authorities for them to improvement of the official source. I will not comment specifically on the West Midlands data but in some of the major cities the bus stops were located some time ago before the more accurate GPS as we know it today was available. The data is usally good enough for public transport timetables and navigation but does not always look as good as it should on a map. I also notice that the OSM surveyed stops are put neatly beside the edge of the road whereas the NaPTAN points tend to be further from the road centre line, probably closer to where the kerb actually is. This sometimes gives bus operators problems knowing which road the bus stop is on. -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
[Talk-transit] Naptan alignment
Thomas I've also looked at Google maps and their alignment is off too in exactly the same way ours is in areas I know well and have surveyed, so I guess it's down to the NaPTAN data. There are examples where I know the bus stops are in a row along the street (Corporation Street and Acocks Green Village for example) but NapTAN has one or two skewed from the line by several metres. Currently I favour correcting the NapTAN data to what we know on the ground, but until a consensus emerges I'm laying off the urge to correct it. Regards Brian ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
> > > > I've had an initial look . We seem to have a pretty big problem in > alignment > > in the City Centre (probably because of our estimations arising from crap > > GPS traces)- so I've not done any editing/merging until we agree an > > approach. > > Yeah, I was looking at the city centre a little before the import, > wasnt sure who to blame. (Google maps also use naptan data, so if you > compare the points with the aerial view, you can see they're a bit > off) - We still need a good way of aligning them though without > referring to them. > > > Lots of the other data hasn't imported completely yet (lots of > > naptan nodes but no data tagged) so I'll wait and take another look. > > All data was uploaded as of about 10pm last night. If you find any > elements that look like glitches in the conversion, please report them > to me. *Looks OK now* > > > > We also need to agree on the verified/unverified tag - do we delete or > change > > the yes/no value? > > The idea was to delete it. *I agree unverified:no is just plain > counter-intertuitive* > > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
On 31/03/2009, Brian Prangle wrote: > I've had an initial look . We seem to have a pretty big problem in alignment > in the City Centre (probably because of our estimations arising from crap > GPS traces)- so I've not done any editing/merging until we agree an > approach. Yeah, I was looking at the city centre a little before the import, wasnt sure who to blame. (Google maps also use naptan data, so if you compare the points with the aerial view, you can see they're a bit off) - We still need a good way of aligning them though without referring to them. > Lots of the other data hasn't imported completely yet (lots of > naptan nodes but no data tagged) so I'll wait and take another look. All data was uploaded as of about 10pm last night. If you find any elements that look like glitches in the conversion, please report them to me. > We also need to agree on the verified/unverified tag - do we delete or change > the yes/no value? The idea was to delete it. > > Regards > > Brian > > 2009/3/30 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) > >> Thanks to the good folks at UK Department for Transport and Traveline, the >> NaPTAN data import (principally of Bus stops) has started. Birmingham is >> being used as an initial trial to check out any issues before the main >> bulk >> of the upload takes place. >> >> Thanks go to Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) for converting the data to OSM >> format >> and running the upload (currently underway as I write this) of just over >> 4332 nodes. Thanks also go of course to everyone behind the scenes who >> have >> worked to make this all possible. >> >> For this import the Birmingham mappers have decided to import the nodes >> without the highway=bus_stop tag. Birmingham already has a lot of bus >> stops >> mapped and by doing it this way the mappers can check and combine data >> with >> existing stops during on the ground survey. >> >> More details on the NaPTAN data and the import process can be found via >> the >> wiki page at: >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Naptan >> >> Cheers >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list >> talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands >> > -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
I've had an initial look . We seem to have a pretty big problem in alignment in the City Centre (probably because of our estimations arising from crap GPS traces)- so I've not done any editing/merging until we agree an approach. Lots of the other data hasn't imported completely yet (lots of naptan nodes but no data tagged) so I'll wait and take another look. We also need to agree on the verified/unverified tag - do we delete or change the yes/no value? Regards Brian 2009/3/30 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) > Thanks to the good folks at UK Department for Transport and Traveline, the > NaPTAN data import (principally of Bus stops) has started. Birmingham is > being used as an initial trial to check out any issues before the main bulk > of the upload takes place. > > Thanks go to Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) for converting the data to OSM format > and running the upload (currently underway as I write this) of just over > 4332 nodes. Thanks also go of course to everyone behind the scenes who have > worked to make this all possible. > > For this import the Birmingham mappers have decided to import the nodes > without the highway=bus_stop tag. Birmingham already has a lot of bus stops > mapped and by doing it this way the mappers can check and combine data with > existing stops during on the ground survey. > > More details on the NaPTAN data and the import process can be found via the > wiki page at: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Naptan > > Cheers > > Andy > > > > ___ > Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list > talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
In message <49d135f1.9010...@00l.de> Gerrit Lammert wrote: > Hi. > I'm exited to see how this works out. > Beeing curious, I just zoomed in into Birmingham and noticed two things: > 1) Imported stops seem to be close to the already mapped ones but off by > some meters > 2) Some Streets seem to consist entirely of bus_stops. > (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.479838&lon=-1.896227&zoom=18&lay > ers=B000FTF) > Is this real?? Yes it is -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
