[Talk-transit] Criteria for inclusion

[Alexander Jones]

I just wanted to get your opinions on which routes should be included in 
OSM, or if there is an established set of criteria for inclusion.

I have questions specifically about the following categories of routes:
* Commuter buses
* Dial-a-Ride/Deviated routes
* Rural routes in general

Just wanted to see your opinions.
-Alexander


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Re: [Talk-transit] Criteria for inclusion

[Stefan Herbert Tiran]

Hi,

On 02/29/2012 02:01 PM, Alexander Jones wrote:

I just wanted to get your opinions on which routes should be included in
OSM, or if there is an established set of criteria for inclusion.


Fortunately OSM is not german wikipedia. There should be no worry about 
having too much information in the database.


Yours,
Stefan

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Re: [Talk-transit] Criteria for inclusion

[Richard Mann]

I add service=something to the relation to roughly describe what the type
of service is. The ones I use a service=city, service=country,
service=express, service=park_and_ride.

I also add a rough weekday frequency (number of buses per hour off-peak).

That way people can pick out stuff they want and ignore stuff they don't.

Richard

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Stefan Herbert Tiran <
stefan.ti...@student.tugraz.at> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 02/29/2012 02:01 PM, Alexander Jones wrote:
>
>> I just wanted to get your opinions on which routes should be included in
>> OSM, or if there is an established set of criteria for inclusion.
>>
>
> Fortunately OSM is not german wikipedia. There should be no worry about
> having too much information in the database.
>
> Yours,
> Stefan
>
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>
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[Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Janko Mihelić]

Hello,

The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines
are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those
differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that
information in the database right now.

I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for
different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to
maintain. Transiki  gave us some hope
that this could be manageable, but unfortunately the project was shut down.

I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have
a tag similar to the
opening_hourstag.
This way we could know if a line is only active on weekends, or if it
is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in the morning and in the evening.

We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period.
This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much.

It would look like this:

Only ferquency:
*transport_frequency*=t5
this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day.

Only days:
*transport_frequency*=Sa-Su
this bus route only goes on weekends

Only time:
*transport_frequency*=00:00-04:00
Night line

A little more information:
*transport_frequency***=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25
30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning,
last at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday.

And so on. I added a "t" in front of the number of trips so it is easier to
see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely
different way.

This tag could be added in the route
masteror
in the route
direction/variant.
Renderers could draw the lines dashed if they are not very frequent, or
black if they are night lines.

Even rough public transport routers could be made using this information.

What do you guys think? (Should I have put this in the wiki first?)

Janko Mihelić
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Janjko
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Bryce McKinlay]

Personally, I think adding transit schedule data to OSM is not a good idea.

Firstly, in many areas, schedules are highly variable over time, so
this sort of information tends to become obsolete soon after it is
added.

Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit
schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would
be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and
kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves.  How about tags
that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL
instead?

If its just having a service frequency hint for renderers that is
required, then I'd suggest keeping it very simple. For example,
"transport_frequency=frequent",
"transport_frequency=occasional,no_weekend_service" or similar.

Bryce


On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines
> are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those
> differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that
> information in the database right now.
>
> I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for
> different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to
> maintain. Transiki gave us some hope that this could be manageable, but
> unfortunately the project was shut down.
>
> I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have a
> tag similar to the opening_hours tag. This way we could know if a line is
> only active on weekends, or if it is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in
> the morning and in the evening.
>
> We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period.
> This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much.
>
> It would look like this:
>
> Only ferquency:
> transport_frequency=t5
> this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day.
>
> Only days:
> transport_frequency=Sa-Su
> this bus route only goes on weekends
>
> Only time:
> transport_frequency=00:00-04:00
> Night line
>
> A little more information:
> transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25
> 30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning, last
> at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday.
>
> And so on. I added a "t" in front of the number of trips so it is easier to
> see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely
> different way.
>
> This tag could be added in the route master or in the route
> direction/variant. Renderers could draw the lines dashed if they are not
> very frequent, or black if they are night lines.
>
> Even rough public transport routers could be made using this information.
>
> What do you guys think? (Should I have put this in the wiki first?)
>
> Janko Mihelić
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Janjko
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Bryce McKinlay  wrote:

> Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit
> schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would
> be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and
> kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves.  How about tags
> that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL
> instead?
>
>
I agree; IIRC, GTFS data is available on the agency's website in a standard
location.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Janko Mihelić]

Dana srijeda, 29. veljače 2012., korisnik Bryce McKinlay
je napisao:

> If its just having a service frequency hint for renderers that is
> required, then I'd suggest keeping it very simple. For example,
> "transport_frequency=frequent",

With my tag, it would be "transport_frequency=t50", and if it changes to
45, it's not too bad.

> "transport_frequency=occasional,no_weekend_service" or similar.

"transport_frequency=Mo-Fr t10"

I think its short and easy to understand, gives more precise information,
but isnt very connected with the official schedule. So if the schedule
changes a bit, it isn't that bad.

>
> Bryce
>

If we only wanted to rely on official sources, we shouldn't use
opening_hours either.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Andre Joost]

Am 29.02.2012 16:07, schrieb Janko Mihelić:

Hello,

The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines
are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those
differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that
information in the database right now.

I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for
different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to
maintain. Transiki  gave us some hope
that this could be manageable, but unfortunately the project was shut down.

I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have
a tag similar to the
opening_hourstag.
This way we could know if a line is only active on weekends, or if it
is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in the morning and in the evening.

We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period.
This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much.

It would look like this:

Only ferquency:
*transport_frequency*=t5
this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day.

Only days:
*transport_frequency*=Sa-Su
this bus route only goes on weekends

Only time:
*transport_frequency*=00:00-04:00
Night line

A little more information:
*transport_frequency***=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25
30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning,
last at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday.

And so on. I added a "t" in front of the number of trips so it is easier to
see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely
different way.



Sounds interesting. For densly populated areas, it would be better to 
give a frequency per hour, or every xy minutes.
But how should the renderer treat a service by three bus lines runnig 
every hour? Together they serve every 20 minutes, or arrive at the same 
time to give people a chance to change the bus.
The renderer has to lock up every bus service on a road, and count them 
together. This is not a simple thing with current mapnik.


Greetings,
Andre Joost



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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag

[Andre Joost]

Am 29.02.2012 18:18, schrieb Paul Johnson:

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Bryce McKinlay  wrote:


Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit
schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would
be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and
kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves.  How about tags
that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL
instead?



I agree; IIRC, GTFS data is available on the agency's website in a standard
location.


Could you please discuss Google Transport things on Google Groups?

This is openstreetmap, not Google.

Greetibngs,
Andre Joost




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