Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Andre Joost wrote: > The renderer has to look up every bus service on a road, and count them > together. This is not a simple thing with current mapnik. > > > Yes indeed. I've done it by applying local external rules (if ref=X13 then behave as if frequency=6, because I know its frequency is supplemented by another service). This would be better solved with some form of pre-processing to amalgamate frequencies, though that's not trivial. Not impossible though (the data processing is easy; it's getting the data in a manipulable form that's fiddly). ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
2012/3/1 Andre Joost > > Sounds interesting. For densly populated areas, it would be better to give > a frequency per hour, or every xy minutes. > Maybe my "t" could be replaced with "h10" for 10 trips every hour or "d40" for 40 trips every day. > But how should the renderer treat a service by three bus lines runnig > every hour? Together they serve every 20 minutes, or arrive at the same > time to give people a chance to change the bus. > The renderer has to lock up every bus service on a road, and count them > together. This is not a simple thing with current mapnik. > > Greetings, > Andre Joost > > I must admit I don't know much about getting renderers to work, but summing frequencies of all bus lines on each way seems to be enough for now. And if you draw bus routes with colours ranging from blue (rare route) to red (busy route) it should be pretty obvious where you need to go if you want to get on a bus quickly. And for lines that aren't active on all days you can add a dashed line (which is visible only if it is the only route on the road). Janko ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Andre Joost wrote: > Am 29.02.2012 18:18, schrieb Paul Johnson: > >> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Bryce McKinlay >> wrote: >> >>> Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit >>> schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would >>> be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and >>> kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves. How about tags >>> that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL >>> instead? >>> >>> >> I agree; IIRC, GTFS data is available on the agency's website in a >> standard >> location. > > > Could you please discuss Google Transport things on Google Groups? > > This is openstreetmap, not Google. GTFS is an open data format for public transport schedules. Just because it was invented by Google does not mean that it's only relevant to them. Many projects use GTFS data and have nothing to do with Google Transit. Example: opentripplanner.org Bryce ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote: > I must admit I don't know much about getting renderers to work, but > summing frequencies of all bus lines on each way seems to be enough for > now. And if you draw bus routes with colours ranging from blue (rare route) > to red (busy route) it should be pretty obvious where you need to go if you > want to get on a bus quickly. And for lines that aren't active on all days > you can add a dashed line (which is visible only if it is the only route on > the road). > > No renderer does summing of frequencies for you, although Maperitive is getting close (it will do summing already, but only to change labels, not to change line colours/widths) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
2012/3/1 Bryce McKinlay > > GTFS is an open data format for public transport schedules. Just > because it was invented by Google does not mean that it's only > relevant to them. > > Many projects use GTFS data and have nothing to do with Google > Transit. Example: opentripplanner.org > > Bryce > > The problem with GTFS is that it's not easy to maintain. That means that if your local public transport doesn't already have those feeds (and mine doesn't and will not have in the foreseeable future), you have to make them and maintain them yourself. That's a bit more work than I'm ready to volunteer :) I've looked at the GTFS specification, and there is no frequency part, only arrival_time and departure_time. So every time a line changes one departure time, I have to be there to change it. With transport_frequency tag I am suggesting, a few departure times more or less is not a big problem. Janko ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 16:07, Janko Mihelić wrote: > Hello, > > The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines > are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those > differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that > information in the database right now. The interpretation of what a low volume line is and isn't seems hard, and probably differ a lot between different areas. How do I do the decision that: "transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25" means render as low volume Do you have code for this? ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
2012/3/1 Erik Johansson > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 16:07, Janko Mihelić wrote: > > The interpretation of what a low volume line is and isn't seems hard, > and probably differ a lot between different areas. > > How do I do the decision that: > "transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25" > means > render as low volume > > Do you have code for this? > I have no code for now, only ideas. I think that a gradual change of frequency would be better than a cut off at a number of trips. The change would be visualised with hues of blue and red. It would be best if the number for low and high volume would be picked differently for each operator. For example, take the lowest and highest frequency of one operator, those are blue and red, purple in the middle. This can't be done only with the renderer, there should be a pre-render re-factoring of the planet file. "transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25" This one would be ( 30/24 + 25/24 ) / 2 = 1.146 trips per hour It leaves out starting and ending time of the line, but I think that's enough information for a map with one layer. Janko ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
2012/3/1 Janko Mihelić > > "transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25" > This one would be ( 30/24 + 25/24 ) / 2 = 1.146 trips per hour > > Janko > No, I forgot to count Mo-Fr as 5 days, and Sunday that has no trips. So it would be like this: ( 5*(30/24) + 1*(25/24) + 1*0 ) / 7 = 1.0417 trips per hour ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Regarding your original proposal with Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30: Instead of putting the count of trips in a time period how about giving the average headway? When exact times are not provided timetables and riders often refer to "how often the bus/train comes". You could represent this with strings such as T=20m T=1h T=45s, maybe even T=1m45s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency#Definitions_and_units On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote: > I've looked at the GTFS specification, and there is no frequency part, > https://developers.google.com/transit/gtfs/reference#frequencies_fields was added to GTFS just over 5 years ago. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Dana četvrtak, 1. ožujka 2012., korisnik Tom Brown je napisao: > Regarding your original proposal with Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30: > Instead of putting the count of trips in a time period how about giving the average headway? When exact times are not provided timetables and riders often refer to "how often the bus/train comes". You could represent this with strings such as T=20m T=1h T=45s, maybe even T=1m45s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency#Definitions_and_units Maybe we could use mine t10 (or h10 for trips per hour and d10 for trips per day) and 10m, 10h for time between trips. They are essentially the same thing. > > https://developers.google.com/transit/gtfs/reference#frequencies_fields > was added to GTFS just over 5 years ago. > Wow, I don't know how i missed that. Was there talk about exporting osm transit data to GTFS? I think that would make creating GTFS feeds much easier with all the stops, shapes, line names and such.. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
2012/3/1 Janko Mihelić > > > Dana četvrtak, 1. ožujka 2012., korisnik Tom Brown > je napisao: > > > Regarding your original proposal with Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30: > > Instead of putting the count of trips in a time period how about giving > the average headway? When exact times are not provided timetables and > riders often refer to "how often the bus/train comes". You could represent > this with strings such as T=20m T=1h T=45s, maybe even T=1m45s. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency#Definitions_and_units > > Maybe we could use mine t10 (or h10 for trips per hour and d10 for trips > per day) and 10m, 10h for time between trips. They are essentially the same > thing. Perhaps you (or a collaborator) can setup a test system which consumes the data (ie render it, generate a time table etc) and allow that experience to guide your decision. It'll be a worthwhile effort because once people see the data being used they'll be more motivated to add it. > > > > > > https://developers.google.com/transit/gtfs/reference#frequencies_fields > > was added to GTFS just over 5 years ago. > > > > Wow, I don't know how i missed that. > > Was there talk about exporting osm transit data to GTFS? I think that > would make creating GTFS feeds much easier with all the stops, shapes, line > names and such.. > The only tool I've heard of you can find here: https://www.google.com/search?q=osm%20gtfs ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
