Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
Bryce Nesbitt writes: But demographic information (the bulk of padeshahekhoban's survey) is not recorded by OSM. We have no idea who most mappers are. For example: people doing gender analysis of OSM users use name analysis (e.g. Jane is female). Education level is relevant, but not recoverable. Home country (for expats) is not recoverable either, but of interest in marking the participation level of local residents. Human languages spoken would also be of interest. If osmf collects just a bit more demographic data, the vast bulk of public data becomes more useful to research. I might be the nicest person you have ever met, I hope I am a good OSM mapper, and I am kind to children and animals. However, I vehemently oppose OSM collecting any additional personally-identifiable data. My birth year, employment status, gender and other such data are nobody's business but mine. And you might call me a privacy nut if you know me, but I have given more (and more personally-identifiable information) about myself to OSM than I have to any other volunteer project in my life. I have done so knowing what OSM's existing privacy policies are: nothing specific except those specified and implied by the License Terms, and I like it that way. So, I continue to contribute. Asking me for demographics directly threatens my willingness to contribute in the future. There are privacy issues, for those accounts who provide demographics only to researchers. If demographics are included with editing stats, it becomes probable someone could work the data in reverse to reveal the member ID. You are darn right there are privacy issues. As OSM has absolutely no Privacy Policy (that I am aware of) that isn't already included in the License Terms I (and thousands of others) have agreed to, the privacy issues are what is out there is out there and what is not out there is not available. Any attempt to change this ex post facto is going to inflame the same sort of ugly backlash that changing the License Terms from CC-BY-SA to ODBL did: a nasty feeling of betrayal by OSM contributors (which still has not completely gone away, even for many who have agreed to the new terms). Who wants to go first with THAT?! Beyond that I think it reasonable to ask more of mappers. Wikipedia has a good argument for anonymous editing. OpenStreetMap? I think not so much. No, it is not reasonable to ask more of mappers. OpenStreetMap absolutely has the same good arguments for the sort of semi-anonymous mapping it enjoys right now. Do you want to chill new mappers as well as dyed-in-the-wool contributors to what is a great project? OK, then start talking about asking more of us in the direction of privacy-invading demographic information. This knowing everything about everybody has gone too far. You don't know about padeshahekhoban? Neither do I. And I really don't care to: I'm busy mapping. SteveA California OSM contributor of over 8000 edits since 2009 (so leave me alone so I may continue mapping)___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Editing logs are there. But demographic information (the bulk of padeshahekhoban's survey) is not recorded by OSM. We have no idea who most mappers are. You have the same issue with pretty much any project, whether it be a FLOSS development project, or Wikipedia, or anything like that. OSM is not unique, and that's a good thing. For example: people doing gender analysis of OSM users use name analysis (e.g. Jane is female). Education level is relevant, but not recoverable. Home country (for expats) is not recoverable either, but of interest in marking the participation level of local residents. Human languages spoken would also be of interest. If osmf collects just a bit more demographic data, the vast bulk of public data becomes more useful to research. OSM collects the minimal amount of information about its members that it needs to. You're arguing it should increase that minimal amount- so what's the need you're addressing? There are privacy issues, for those accounts who provide demographics only to researchers. It's far deeper than that, though. Once you start collecting information, you cannot uncollect it. Once we have data, there will be various types of entities (commercial organizations, governments, etc.) that will be interested in it, and will use a variety of techniques to collect it. The solution to this problem is to collect as little as possible. Beyond that I think it reasonable to ask more of mappers. Wikipedia has a good argument for anonymous editing. OpenStreetMap? I think not so much. I think that OSM strikes a good balance in the minimal amount of personally identifiable information it requires from its users. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
Am 28.07.2013 17:51, schrieb stevea: ... Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox I might be the nicest person you have ever met, I hope I am a good OSM mapper, and I am kind to children and animals. However, I vehemently oppose OSM collecting any additional personally-identifiable data. My birth year, employment status, gender and other such data are nobody's business but mine. And you might call me a privacy nut if you know me, but I have given more (and more personally-identifiable information) about myself to OSM than I have to any other volunteer project in my life. Be assured that you are by no reasonable standard a privacy nut if you want to reassure yourself, take a look at the now 100 messages long thread (not counting at least one spin off thread) on talk-de on the privacy issues related to associating user id, display name and edits. I have done so knowing what OSM's existing privacy policies are: nothing specific except those specified and implied by the License Terms, and I like it that way. So, I continue to contribute. Asking me for demographics directly threatens my willingness to contribute in the future. Not only do we have a privacy policy (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Privacy_Policy) that is linked to the first step of account creation, we (and that means everybody on the community that has access to data that we don't consider / isn't public) are bound by law to abide by certain procedures and practices (in particular UK data protection legislation). There are privacy issues, for those accounts who provide demographics only to researchers. If demographics are included with editing stats, it becomes probable someone could work the data in reverse to reveal the member ID. You are darn right there are privacy issues. As OSM has absolutely no Privacy Policy (that I am aware of) that isn't already included in the License Terms I (and thousands of others) have agreed to, the privacy issues are what is out there is out there and what is not out there is not available. Any attempt to change this/ex post facto/ is going to inflame the same sort of ugly backlash that changing the License Terms from CC-BY-SA to ODBL did: a nasty feeling of betrayal by OSM contributors (which still has not completely gone away, even for many who have agreed to the new terms). Who wants to go first with THAT?! See above. Beyond that I think it reasonable to ask more of mappers. Wikipedia has a good argument for anonymous editing. OpenStreetMap? I think not so much. No, it is not reasonable to ask more of mappers. OpenStreetMap absolutely has the same good arguments for the sort of semi-anonymous mapping it enjoys right now. Do you want to chill new mappers as well as dyed-in-the-wool contributors to what is a great project? OK, then start talking about asking more of us in the direction of privacy-invading demographic information. This knowing everything about everybody has gone too far. You don't know about padeshahekhoban? Neither do I. And I really don't care to: I'm busy mapping. I can assure you, that even if now and then it would be nice to have better ways of contacting mappers (aka knowing their real name and address), there is definitely no intention of expanding the information we require for an account (a working e-mail address) and very very clearly no intent to collect any kind of information that could be considered sensitive personal information (gender, age etc). As said above just the legal requirements we would then have to fulfil make it clear that this will not happen (not to mention the community outrage that it would cause). Simon ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:51 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: ** I might be the nicest person you have ever met, I hope I am a good OSM mapper, and I am kind to children and animals. However, I vehemently oppose OSM collecting any additional personally-identifiable data. My birth year, employment status, gender and other such data are nobody's business but mine. Any such collection should (as prior discussion has been headed)be provided voluntarily with a privacy choice: Birth year __ [-] visible to public. [-] shared in full, for qualified research projects. [*] shared in aggregate form only, for qualified research projects. Languages Spoken [English-Fluent][German-Rudimentary] I am willing to be contact up to once ever 6 months for research surveys [X] Understanding who is mapping is a useful thing for a wide variety of purposes. OSM is a community of mappers: many will chose to share who they are and their motivations for participating. We're mapping verifiable objects and defined boundaries that exist in the world: this is not wikileaks. An opt-out should mostly keep the data clean: removing the incentive to provide fake data (e.g. Birth year 1/1/1900, with apologies to anyone actually born on that day [1http://www.theglobaledition.com/study-finds-all-internet-users-born-on-jan-1-1900/]). The cost of collecting demographics is low. The disruption to those seeking anonymity is slight. -Bryce [1] SAN FRANCISCO (AP) – A recent analysis of unencrypted user data from the nation’s top ten most visited websites by a subsidiary of Cisco Systems has revealed the average age of internet users to be 112 with over 35% of people having a birthday falling on January 1st 1900. http://www.theglobaledition.com/study-finds-all-internet-users-born-on-jan-1-1900/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
From: Simon Poole [mailto:si...@poole.ch] Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today. This knowing everything about everybody has gone too far. You don't know about padeshahekhoban? Neither do I. And I really don't care to: I'm busy mapping. Well, I think padeshahekhoban is a bit of an exception. When someone starts claiming to be official and that their message is approved by the OSMF board, I start to care about who they are. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
Hi, On 28.07.2013 22:35, Simon Poole wrote: I can assure you, that even if now and then it would be nice to have better ways of contacting mappers (aka knowing their real name and address), there is definitely no intention of expanding the information we require for an account Occasionally, and usually in the wake of some kind of problematic edit, some people call for all kinds of measures that would make it harder for a newbie to cause trouble, or measures that would help implement a web of trust - for example, you could define that you want to monitor all edits in your area of interest, except those that come from a list of people that you have defined, and possibly those that come from people trusted by these, and so on. One component that people sometimes mention is creating some kind of optional real identity service, so that if you want, you can somehow reveal your real name and have this verified in some way, and then you get a pink star drawn next to your user name on the API or something like that which would supposedly make people trust your edits more than if they just had a nickname. Just like e.g. amazon.com and some other web sites do in their customer review sections. I wouldn't rule that out, but it's certainly not something anybody plans to implement in the near future. And I think at least in the discussions I've been part of, nobody suggested to expand this scheme to age, gender, religion, or income bracket ;) As Simon mentioned, on talk-de there's currently a long-ish discussion with some people demanding that we stop adding user names/user ids to the planet file as those would make it easier for people to data mine the planet to profile indivduals. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.
Birth year __ [-] visible to public. [-] shared in full, for qualified research projects. [*] shared in aggregate form only, for qualified research projects. Languages Spoken [English-Fluent][German-Rudimentary] I am willing to be contact up to once ever 6 months for research surveys [X] The Babel template does a good job of expressing what any OSM user with a wiki User page wants to share w.r.t. languages spoken/understood/rudimentary-only/what-have-you. Understanding who is mapping is a useful thing for a wide variety of purposes. OSM is a community of mappers: many will chose to share who they are and their motivations for participating. We're mapping verifiable objects and defined boundaries that exist in the world: this is not wikileaks. I don't doubt this. I just don't volunteer anything I haven't already -- which is a lot, but I prefer to remain under the threshold of discomfort. I think many, many OSMers do, too. Opt me out, please. As I recognize that OSM has a rather formal and explicit privacy policy, I still elect to opt out. I don't mean to be so very public about it by posting to the talk-us pages (and everybody shouldn't), but rather I'm having a policy discussion with the wider USA OSM community, and want to stress that I am but one of many USA OSM mappers who prefers the present state of semi-anonymity. An opt-out should mostly keep the data clean: removing the incentive to provide fake data (e.g. Birth year 1/1/1900, with apologies to anyone actually born on that day [http://www.theglobaledition.com/study-finds-all-internet-users-born-on-jan-1-1900/1]). The cost of collecting demographics is low. The disruption to those seeking anonymity is slight. OK, how do you account for the skew in data that happens as some opt in and some opt out? Um, please don't answer that (but do ponder it), as the question is essentially rhetorical. Good discussion (and thank you to those who have responded to me off-list, as well), SteveA California___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Shields are up!
We finally managed to get Phil's highway shield rendering up on the OSM-US server today! You can see the tiles here: http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html This is a pretty basic preview for now. I'll look at getting the tiles set up in a pretty leaflet UI or something. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Toby Murray wrote: We finally managed to get Phil's highway shield rendering up on the OSM-US server today! You can see the tiles here: http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html This is a pretty basic preview for now. I'll look at getting the tiles set up in a pretty leaflet UI or something. Toby Most of them look pretty good. The Texas FM/RM road shields need work though (missing the black backgrounds), and I'm assuming Louisiana shields aren't done yet? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
Shield rendering is dependant on valid route relations existing. On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.comwrote: On Sun, Jul 28, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Toby Murray wrote: We finally managed to get Phil's highway shield rendering up on the OSM-US server today! You can see the tiles here: http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html This is a pretty basic preview for now. I'll look at getting the tiles set up in a pretty leaflet UI or something. Toby Most of them look pretty good. The Texas FM/RM road shields need work though (missing the black backgrounds), and I'm assuming Louisiana shields aren't done yet? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
Most shields that have black backgrounds have them removed. It seems like a stylistic thing, and I think it looks good. On Jul 28, 2013 8:59 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 28, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Toby Murray wrote: We finally managed to get Phil's highway shield rendering up on the OSM-US server today! You can see the tiles here: http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html This is a pretty basic preview for now. I'll look at getting the tiles set up in a pretty leaflet UI or something. Toby Most of them look pretty good. The Texas FM/RM road shields need work though (missing the black backgrounds), and I'm assuming Louisiana shields aren't done yet? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
