Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Jeffrey Ollie]

I have objections to the use of Slack in particular, and to the use of
real-time communication tools in general (not just Slack but other tools
like IRC, HipChat, Rocket.Chat etc.).

My objections to Slack in particular primarily come down to the fact that
using it puts too much control in the hands of a commercial entity. IANAL
and I haven't read the terms of service but I'd certainly be more
comfortable using open source software running on OSM servers.

My objection to real-time communication tools in general that it limits
visibility of and participation in discussions from less dedicated members
of the community.

First, the real-time nature of the communication means that noise tends to
overwhelm the signal. I don't keep Slack or other tools open at work - it's
just too distracting. When I get home in the evenings I'm not going to wade
through the past 24+ hours of discussion looking for fragments of
discussions I might be interested in. Some tools (like Slack) have
attempted to re-invent threaded conversations but I haven't seen them
widely used yet.

Second, most of the tools are only searchable from within themselves.
External search indexes like Google and Bing can't or won't index the
content. On some platforms (IRC in particular) there are a lot of people
that expect all discussions to be ephemeral and not archived at all.

That said, I'm not totally against the use of such real-time communication
tools. For things where real-time interaction is essential (Is X up? How do
I Y? Am I doing Z right?) it's great. For social chit-chat it's great. For
anything else I'm not so sure.


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> SteveA wrote:
>
> At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after
> reading Slack's Terms of Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion,
> really), I could not and do not abide with the ways which Slack (and other
> proprietary, not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our
> community into "those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford
> has acknowledged this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up
> about this again whenever I see this invitation to Slack again and again.
>
> I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen
> because some of us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers
> to seriously (re-?)consider that there are well-established, perfectly
> useful communication methods (email, wiki, talk-us, face-to-face,
> meetups/Mapping Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps laden with
> hidden, commercial code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the
> private realm of a for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data
> project, I remain puzzled why OSM volunteers do this.
>
> Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought
> up before) is that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app"
> that we either develop our own or choose some open-source version of one
> without onerous License Terms that MANY (not just me) find offensive.
>
> Is that possible?
>
> Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.
>
> SteveA
> California
> OSM Volunteer since 2009
>
> Steve,
> I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications.
> For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the
> Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to
> the community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and
> even more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is
> dead.
>
> Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects
> of what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be
> engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want
> to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other
> forms of communications, means the community has chosen.
>
> I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists
> to communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to
> nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that
> maybe because people use Slack in their day job.
>
> I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more
> agreeable terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is
> objectionable?
>
> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
> community or should we look elsewhere?
>
> Best,
> Clifford
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>


-- 
Jeff Ollie
The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Planning an Import in Prince George's County, Maryland

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:28:10 -0700
From: OSM Volunteer stevea 
To: talk-us 
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Planning an Import in Prince George's County,
Maryland


Clifford Snow  wrote:
If you haven't already joined our US Slack community, please sign up at 
https://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/. The community can help you with build your 
import plan.

Having met Clifford two summers ago, I admired, marveled at (and congratulated him upon!) his 
awesome community organization skills.  I have "done OSM" with him via talk-us, 
face-to-face (we briefly spoke at SOTM-US Seattle), email and wiki to better our map — all using 
these terrific relatively freely-available methods of communication — and none of them requiring 
that I accept a License Agreement.  To be clear:  I have great respect for both Clifford and the 
open-platform communication methods by which we (and many others) "do OSM" together.

At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after reading Slack's Terms of 
Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion, really), I could not and do not abide with the ways 
which Slack (and other proprietary, not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our 
community into "those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford has 
acknowledged this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up about this again whenever I 
see this invitation to Slack again and again.

I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen because some of 
us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers to seriously (re-?)consider 
that there are well-established, perfectly useful communication methods (email, wiki, 
talk-us, face-to-face, meetups/Mapping Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps 
laden with hidden, commercial code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the 
private realm of a for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data project, I remain 
puzzled why OSM volunteers do this.

Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought up before) is 
that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app" that we either 
develop our own or choose some open-source version of one without onerous License Terms 
that MANY (not just me) find offensive.

Is that possible?

Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.

SteveA
California
OSM Volunteer since 2009




+1

Mark


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Clifford Snow]

SteveA wrote:

At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after
reading Slack's Terms of Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion,
really), I could not and do not abide with the ways which Slack (and other
proprietary, not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our
community into "those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford
has acknowledged this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up
about this again whenever I see this invitation to Slack again and again.

I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen
because some of us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers
to seriously (re-?)consider that there are well-established, perfectly
useful communication methods (email, wiki, talk-us, face-to-face,
meetups/Mapping Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps laden with
hidden, commercial code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the
private realm of a for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data
project, I remain puzzled why OSM volunteers do this.

Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought
up before) is that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app"
that we either develop our own or choose some open-source version of one
without onerous License Terms that MANY (not just me) find offensive.

Is that possible?

Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.

SteveA
California
OSM Volunteer since 2009

Steve,
I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications.
For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the
Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to
the community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and
even more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is
dead.

Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects of
what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be
engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want
to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other
forms of communications, means the community has chosen.

I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists to
communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to
nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that
maybe because people use Slack in their day job.

I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more
agreeable terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is
objectionable?

I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
community or should we look elsewhere?

Best,
Clifford
-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Planning an Import in Prince George's County, Maryland

[Mulea, Gregory]

I have realized I only replied to Clifford and not replied all, so our 
conversation has not been uploaded to talk-us.  Here is the summary of the 
convo.

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 9:53 AM Mulea, Gregory 
mailto:gregory.mu...@ppd.mncppc.org>> wrote
Thanks for the reply.  I have updated the wiki to include information about our 
tagging plans.  Let me know if that is sufficient.
Honestly I’m pretty new to OSM (I have done small basic edits but nothing 
compared to this) so I’s still learning.  I plan on using the JOSM editor to 
import these files but if there are better options I am happy to learn about 
them.  As for the conflating issue, I believe that JOSM has a method to check 
for overlap of polygons in which you can decided whether to keep or discard the 
copy (I plan to do this with the buildings polygon file).  As for point data, I 
am unsure as to how to test/check for already existing points (for example 
importing the libraries points file, if there is already an existing library I 
have not found a way to check for that).

Breaking the import up into small sections and using the Tasking Manager to 
work each section at a time is what I've done in the past. I use census voting 
districts - they seem to be a reasonable size. I believe you can use a python 
script or like I do, use postgresql to grab polygons/points by voting district. 
Ask Ian on Slack for permission to administer his TM.
JOSM has a conflation tool, but it was broke last time I tried to use it. If 
there is an existing building outline, I determine which one more accurately 
represents what's on the ground. If the import is, I select both outlines and 
use the "Replace Geometry" tools that comes with the utils2 plugin. If the OSM 
data is better, I copy any tags missing on the OSM data from the import over to 
the existing building.

Check out 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kirkland_Import
 for information on how we did that import.

Best,
Clifford


On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 10:51 AM Mulea, Gregory 
mailto:gregory.mu...@ppd.mncppc.org>> wrote:
Breaking up the import seems like a good idea.
I use ESRI’s ArcMap, how do the scripts compare between ArcMap and what you 
used?
Also, I have a relatively small file of 43 library points.  Would it be 
possible to do somewhat of a test import in order to test JOSM’s conflation 
tool and figure out different workarounds?
Thanks


The 43 points seems like it would be perfect to do with one import.  I use 
org2osm.py to translate shapefiles to .osm files. With just a bit of knowledge 
you should be able to write the translation script to go from shapefile tag to 
.osm tags. Then merge your library point with the existing. I'd be curious to 
learn how the conflation tool works. Instead of using ogr2osm.py you could load 
the shapefile into JOSM and fix the tags by selecting all of points to change 
tags. For example, change NAME= to name=. Depending on your address information, that make take more work. We 
use addr:housenumber, addr:street (with a spelled out street, no 
abbreviations), addr:city and addr:postal_code.
QGIS is the only application I've ever worked with. Most of what I do is run 
from the command line using postgis and gdal tools with the help of the 
ogr2osm.py translation tool.

Great, would I be able to do the test import today?  I also have a small file 
of buildings to test with polygons too.
I plan on just using the JOSM OpenData Plugin to load in the files and then 
changing the tags through there but I could give the py script a shot.

Is it necessary to split the addr tags into housenumber and street or would it 
be okay to leave it as addr:full?

Go ahead with the test import. When you are done, can you point to the area for 
review?

Great, The area will be in Prince George’s County, Maryland
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Planning an Import in Prince George's County, Maryland

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

> Clifford Snow  wrote:
> If you haven't already joined our US Slack community, please sign up at 
> https://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/. The community can help you with build 
> your import plan.

Having met Clifford two summers ago, I admired, marveled at (and congratulated 
him upon!) his awesome community organization skills.  I have "done OSM" with 
him via talk-us, face-to-face (we briefly spoke at SOTM-US Seattle), email and 
wiki to better our map — all using these terrific relatively freely-available 
methods of communication — and none of them requiring that I accept a License 
Agreement.  To be clear:  I have great respect for both Clifford and the 
open-platform communication methods by which we (and many others) "do OSM" 
together.

At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after 
reading Slack's Terms of Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion, really), I 
could not and do not abide with the ways which Slack (and other proprietary, 
not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our community into 
"those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford has acknowledged 
this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up about this again 
whenever I see this invitation to Slack again and again.

I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen 
because some of us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers to 
seriously (re-?)consider that there are well-established, perfectly useful 
communication methods (email, wiki, talk-us, face-to-face, meetups/Mapping 
Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps laden with hidden, commercial 
code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the private realm of a 
for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data project, I remain puzzled why 
OSM volunteers do this.

Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought up 
before) is that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app" that we 
either develop our own or choose some open-source version of one without 
onerous License Terms that MANY (not just me) find offensive.

Is that possible?

Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.

SteveA
California
OSM Volunteer since 2009
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] New MapRoulette challenges

[Martijn van Exel]

Just to clarify, the links below are the challenge admin links, the
actual challenges would be accessed athttp://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3041 
http://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3042 

We can easily prepare more of these challenges so we are interested in
your feedback and suggestions for other areas to do this in.
The challenges are based on output from the Cygnus conflation tool which
has a web interface here: http://cygnus.improve-osm.org/ , in case
you're interested in working with it yourself.--
  Martijn van Exel
  m...@rtijn.org



On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, at 01:02, Horea Meleg wrote:
> Hi everyone!


> To make OpenStreetMap more navigable and accurate in guidance, Telenav
> mapping team is planning to process available open data and share it
> with the community using MapRoulette Challenges.> As a starting point we 
> processed Tiger 2017 data, and we extracted
> ways which don’t have name in OSM but there is an available name in
> Tiger. We made two challenges, for two different areas:


>  * Jacksonville, Florida
>http://maproulette.org/mr3/admin/project/271/challenge/3041
>  * San Antonio, Texas
>http://maproulette.org/mr3/admin/project/271/challenge/3042>  


> All necessary information can be found in challenges description.
> Also, description contains GitHub tickets for both challenges.> We'd love any 
> input and advice!


> If you have any questions or comments, please let me/us know.


> Thanks!


>  


> _
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] New MapRoulette challenges

[Horea Meleg]

Hi everyone!

To make OpenStreetMap more navigable and accurate in guidance, Telenav mapping 
team is planning to process available open data and share it with the community 
using MapRoulette Challenges.

As a starting point we processed Tiger 2017 data, and we extracted ways which 
don't have name in OSM but there is an available name in Tiger. We made two 
challenges, for two different areas:

  *   Jacksonville, Florida 
http://maproulette.org/mr3/admin/project/271/challenge/3041
  *   San Antonio, Texas 
http://maproulette.org/mr3/admin/project/271/challenge/3042



All necessary information can be found in challenges description. Also, 
description contains GitHub tickets for both challenges.

We'd love any input and advice!

If you have any questions or comments, please let me/us know.

Thanks!

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us