[Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Andrew Wiseman]

Hi all,

I was just thinking about this from an American context and went to the
Wiki, where someone else had the same question -- I think because we call
many places a bar. [1]

I think part of the confusion is because many municipalities in the US
require that places sell food if they sell alcohol, but to me, the food is
secondary. So thus they should be tagged as pubs.

The wiki uses a European context, so here's my attempt at classifying what
is what in the US. Let me know what you think.

To me, a "pub" in the US would be bars that have food, but the food isn't
the main attraction - you mainly go there to hang out or talk with friends
or watch the game or just drink, but they may have food too. For example, a
sports bar or your neighborhood bar if they have wings or nachos or
burgers, but that's not the main draw. Wonderland in DC, for a specific
example.

A "bar" would be a place that doesn't serve food at all, like a cocktail
bar or just some bar without food, where they might not have seats, which
is something the wiki suggests. The Adams Morgan area in Washington, DC has
a lot of these places, for example, where people stand around and drink
mostly, maybe dance too. McSorley's in New York would be another example of
a bar, with seats.

And a "restaurant" would be a place where there is alcohol but you mainly
go for food -- for example, bar and grill chains TGI Fridays, Applebee's,
Buffalo Wild Wings, etc. would fall into this category. So would non-chains
that are similar. I would posit that most people don't go to TGI Friday's
just to drink.

There's also "cafe" as a separate tag which can include food and alcohol,
but to me a cafe is a coffee shop that might also have beer or food, but
coffee is the main attraction -- like a Starbucks in the US.

What do you think? Am I way off? Browsing Taginfo and Overpass mostly seem
to agree with the above.

Here's the wiki discussion, my response is below. 1 -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dpub#Pub.2C_restaurant.2C_or_bar.3F

Andrew

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Greg Troxel]

Andrew Wiseman  writes:

> The wiki uses a European context, so here's my attempt at classifying what
> is what in the US. Let me know what you think.

I mostly agree; comments on details.

> To me, a "pub" in the US would be bars that have food, but the food isn't
> the main attraction - you mainly go there to hang out or talk with friends
> or watch the game or just drink, but they may have food too. For example, a
> sports bar or your neighborhood bar if they have wings or nachos or
> burgers, but that's not the main draw. Wonderland in DC, for a specific
> example.

pub/restaurant is hard, as both have food.  But agreed that if (some
combination of) the primary draw is a great beer selection, the ambience
is "in a bar" vs "restaurant that has a bar someplace", and if the menu
tends to burgers and pizza, then pub is the right call.

> A "bar" would be a place that doesn't serve food at all, like a cocktail
> bar or just some bar without food, where they might not have seats, which
> is something the wiki suggests. The Adams Morgan area in Washington, DC has
> a lot of these places, for example, where people stand around and drink
> mostly, maybe dance too. McSorley's in New York would be another example of
> a bar, with seats.

Or even places that have some food, but are not really intending to have
meals.   Or where the food is really really secondary as you say.

> And a "restaurant" would be a place where there is alcohol but you mainly
> go for food -- for example, bar and grill chains TGI Fridays, Applebee's,
> Buffalo Wild Wings, etc. would fall into this category. So would non-chains
> that are similar. I would posit that most people don't go to TGI Friday's
> just to drink.

Yes, but restaurant in OSM also requires that you are seated at tables
with table service.  if you get it yourself, then:

> There's also "cafe" as a separate tag which can include food and alcohol,
> but to me a cafe is a coffee shop that might also have beer or food, but
> coffee is the main attraction -- like a Starbucks in the US.

That's not what the OSM tag means; it's more european.  In OSM, "cafe"
means (usually) that there is real food, but (always) that you order at
a counter and then either take it yourself or have the staff bring it to
you.  However, a coffee shop is very probably a cafe under this
definition.  But so is a place that has real food cooked by a chef,
except that you don't get waited on.

One area of disagreement you'll find is the boundary between fastfood
and cafe.  A McDonald's, to pick the poster child, is clearly "fast
food".  The OSM definition talks about how the food is prepared in
advance vs to order for a specific customer.  I have been tagging dunkin
donuts as fast food rather than cafe; you can get a sausage egg and
cheese - but it's factory food in the microwave.  Starbucks I see as on
the line, and boutique coffee shops tend to get cafe.  This is
troublesome because it more or less comes down to "real food" vs
"factory food".


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Jeffrey Ollie]

I think that you're all overthinking it, and trying to fit a European
square into a US circle. First of all, the US doesn't have pubs, unless the
owner is specifically trying to recreate the atmosphere of a European pub
(or at least what an Americans think a European pub is). Doesn't matter if
a European visiting the US would think of the establishment as such, they
just don't really exist around here.

Second, almost every establishment that sells alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption is legally required to sell food of some sort. I've
been in bars that had a toaster oven to heat up frozen pizzas and that
qualified as food. And there are establishments where the distinction
between "bar" and "restaurant" based on the food they serve is very fuzzy.

Third, the laws/regulations around liquor licenses are complex for various
historical and political reasons and vary state by state and probably even
city by city. What classifies as a bar in one state might be a restaurant
in another.

So, trying to come up with hard and fast rules as to what's a pub, bar or
restaurant is doomed to failure. The only test that makes any sense is
"what do the locals consider it?" I know that's too fuzzy for some people
but trying to come up with precise definitions for OSM is doomed to failure
because there aren't precise definitions in the real world.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> Andrew Wiseman  writes:
>
> > The wiki uses a European context, so here's my attempt at classifying
> what
> > is what in the US. Let me know what you think.
>
> I mostly agree; comments on details.
>
> > To me, a "pub" in the US would be bars that have food, but the food isn't
> > the main attraction - you mainly go there to hang out or talk with
> friends
> > or watch the game or just drink, but they may have food too. For
> example, a
> > sports bar or your neighborhood bar if they have wings or nachos or
> > burgers, but that's not the main draw. Wonderland in DC, for a specific
> > example.
>
> pub/restaurant is hard, as both have food.  But agreed that if (some
> combination of) the primary draw is a great beer selection, the ambience
> is "in a bar" vs "restaurant that has a bar someplace", and if the menu
> tends to burgers and pizza, then pub is the right call.
>
> > A "bar" would be a place that doesn't serve food at all, like a cocktail
> > bar or just some bar without food, where they might not have seats, which
> > is something the wiki suggests. The Adams Morgan area in Washington, DC
> has
> > a lot of these places, for example, where people stand around and drink
> > mostly, maybe dance too. McSorley's in New York would be another example
> of
> > a bar, with seats.
>
> Or even places that have some food, but are not really intending to have
> meals.   Or where the food is really really secondary as you say.
>
> > And a "restaurant" would be a place where there is alcohol but you mainly
> > go for food -- for example, bar and grill chains TGI Fridays, Applebee's,
> > Buffalo Wild Wings, etc. would fall into this category. So would
> non-chains
> > that are similar. I would posit that most people don't go to TGI Friday's
> > just to drink.
>
> Yes, but restaurant in OSM also requires that you are seated at tables
> with table service.  if you get it yourself, then:
>
> > There's also "cafe" as a separate tag which can include food and alcohol,
> > but to me a cafe is a coffee shop that might also have beer or food, but
> > coffee is the main attraction -- like a Starbucks in the US.
>
> That's not what the OSM tag means; it's more european.  In OSM, "cafe"
> means (usually) that there is real food, but (always) that you order at
> a counter and then either take it yourself or have the staff bring it to
> you.  However, a coffee shop is very probably a cafe under this
> definition.  But so is a place that has real food cooked by a chef,
> except that you don't get waited on.
>
> One area of disagreement you'll find is the boundary between fastfood
> and cafe.  A McDonald's, to pick the poster child, is clearly "fast
> food".  The OSM definition talks about how the food is prepared in
> advance vs to order for a specific customer.  I have been tagging dunkin
> donuts as fast food rather than cafe; you can get a sausage egg and
> cheese - but it's factory food in the microwave.  Starbucks I see as on
> the line, and boutique coffee shops tend to get cafe.  This is
> troublesome because it more or less comes down to "real food" vs
> "factory food".
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>


-- 
Jeff Ollie
The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Greg Troxel]

Jeffrey Ollie  writes:

> Third, the laws/regulations around liquor licenses are complex for various
> historical and political reasons and vary state by state and probably even
> city by city. What classifies as a bar in one state might be a restaurant
> in another.

Agreed that terms in local law should be ignored.

> So, trying to come up with hard and fast rules as to what's a pub, bar or
> restaurant is doomed to failure. The only test that makes any sense is
> "what do the locals consider it?" I know that's too fuzzy for some people
> but trying to come up with precise definitions for OSM is doomed to failure
> because there aren't precise definitions in the real world.

I agree with the "what does it feel like" part, but not "what the locals
call it".  One of the central issues in tagging in OSM is that words are
used for a specific meaning (usually UK usage, as we know) and the point
is to have a consistent labeling of things around the world, even if
local language is different.  So that leads to "what would someone from
the UK, but who had lived in the area for a year, call it?".

But, I completely agree that the boundaries are fuzzy and that it does
not really matter which is used when it's close.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Harald Kliems]

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:17 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> That's not what the OSM tag means; it's more european.  In OSM, "cafe"
> means (usually) that there is real food, but (always) that you order at
> a counter and then either take it yourself or have the staff bring it to
> you.  However, a coffee shop is very probably a cafe under this
> definition.  But so is a place that has real food cooked by a chef,
> except that you don't get waited on.
>
> Where do you get the order-at-the-counter vs table service part from? I
don't see that in the wiki, and the picture on the amenity=cafe page shows
a waiter in an Austrian cafe, who most likely will take your order at the
table. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe Furthermore,
there is a separate tag for self service
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:self_service

 Harald.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Greg Troxel]

Harald Kliems  writes:

> On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:17 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>>
>> That's not what the OSM tag means; it's more european.  In OSM, "cafe"
>> means (usually) that there is real food, but (always) that you order at
>> a counter and then either take it yourself or have the staff bring it to
>> you.  However, a coffee shop is very probably a cafe under this
>> definition.  But so is a place that has real food cooked by a chef,
>> except that you don't get waited on.

> Where do you get the order-at-the-counter vs table service part from? I
> don't see that in the wiki, and the picture on the amenity=cafe page shows
> a waiter in an Austrian cafe, who most likely will take your order at the
> table. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe Furthermore,
> there is a separate tag for self service
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:self_service

I really do not remember clearly where I read this; it would have been
about 5 years ago.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Jack Burke]

I think that was a discussion on one of the mailing lists. And, where you order 
was also what I understand the (very fine)  distinction to be. 

-jack 

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On September 29, 2016 2:00:04 PM EDT, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>Harald Kliems  writes:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:17 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's not what the OSM tag means; it's more european.  In OSM,
>"cafe"
>>> means (usually) that there is real food, but (always) that you order
>at
>>> a counter and then either take it yourself or have the staff bring
>it to
>>> you.  However, a coffee shop is very probably a cafe under this
>>> definition.  But so is a place that has real food cooked by a chef,
>>> except that you don't get waited on.
>
>> Where do you get the order-at-the-counter vs table service part from?
>I
>> don't see that in the wiki, and the picture on the amenity=cafe page
>shows
>> a waiter in an Austrian cafe, who most likely will take your order at
>the
>> table. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe
>Furthermore,
>> there is a separate tag for self service
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:self_service
>
>I really do not remember clearly where I read this; it would have been
>about 5 years ago.
>
>
>
>
>___
>Talk-us mailing list
>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Andrew Wiseman]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016, Jeffrey Ollie  wrote:

> I think that you're all overthinking it, and trying to fit a European
> square into a US circle. First of all, the US doesn't have pubs, unless the
> owner is specifically trying to recreate the atmosphere of a European pub
> (or at least what an Americans think a European pub is). Doesn't matter if
> a European visiting the US would think of the establishment as such, they
> just don't really exist around here.
>

If that's the case then the majority of places we call bars in the US
should actually be tagged as "restaurant", no? Because a "bar" in OSM is a
place without food. But I don't think that's right.

Andrew


-- 

600,000 DC residents don't have a vote in Congress -- http://www.dcvote.org/

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Rihards]

On 2016.09.30. 11:54, Andrew Wiseman wrote:
...
> I think that you're all overthinking it, and trying to fit a
> European square into a US circle. First of all, the US doesn't have
> pubs, unless the owner is specifically trying to recreate the
> atmosphere of a European pub (or at least what an Americans think a
> European pub is). Doesn't matter if a European visiting the US would
> think of the establishment as such, they just don't really exist
> around here.
> 
> If that's the case then the majority of places we call bars in the US
> should actually be tagged as "restaurant", no? Because a "bar" in OSM is
> a place without food. But I don't think that's right. 

i've usually reasoned it like this :

* if it's a place you go to eat, it's either fast_food or restaurant,
choose one.
* if it's a place where you could get beer and food - with emphasis
being on beer - it's a pub
* if it's a place where you can get alcohol, with emphasis on non-beer,
and food being secondary, it's a bar

restaurant vs pub/bar - you wouldn't go to a restaurant just for the
drinks, usually.

> Andrew 

...
-- 
 Rihards

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Greg Troxel]

Andrew Wiseman  writes:

> On Thursday, September 29, 2016, Jeffrey Ollie  wrote:
>
>> I think that you're all overthinking it, and trying to fit a European
>> square into a US circle. First of all, the US doesn't have pubs, unless the
>> owner is specifically trying to recreate the atmosphere of a European pub
>> (or at least what an Americans think a European pub is). Doesn't matter if
>> a European visiting the US would think of the establishment as such, they
>> just don't really exist around here.
>
> If that's the case then the majority of places we call bars in the US
> should actually be tagged as "restaurant", no? Because a "bar" in OSM is a
> place without food. But I don't think that's right.

Part of the problem is that the original definitions of tags were
exactly the UK definitions, instead of them being extended to make sense
globally.  So I think things like amenity=bar have to bend a little to
cover places that are mainly focused on drinking other than beer, but
might have some food.  This preserves the spirit of the original
meaning, but expands it to things that are conceptually the same but
don't meet the strict definition.





signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 4:13 AM, Rihards  wrote:

> On 2016.09.30. 11:54, Andrew Wiseman wrote:
> ...
> > I think that you're all overthinking it, and trying to fit a
> > European square into a US circle. First of all, the US doesn't have
> > pubs, unless the owner is specifically trying to recreate the
> > atmosphere of a European pub (or at least what an Americans think a
> > European pub is). Doesn't matter if a European visiting the US would
> > think of the establishment as such, they just don't really exist
> > around here.
> >
> > If that's the case then the majority of places we call bars in the US
> > should actually be tagged as "restaurant", no? Because a "bar" in OSM is
> > a place without food. But I don't think that's right.
>
> i've usually reasoned it like this :
>
> * if it's a place you go to eat, it's either fast_food or restaurant,
> choose one.
> * if it's a place where you could get beer and food - with emphasis
> being on beer - it's a pub
> * if it's a place where you can get alcohol, with emphasis on non-beer,
> and food being secondary, it's a bar
>

And if it has an emphasis on beer, frequently with the exclusion of hard
liquor and often food, it's a tavern.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Greg, Paul and List:

I have been to MANY pubs in the UK (and places I would consider similar in 
Belgium, France, the Netherlands..., though much less frequently than in the 
UK).  These are places which serve beer (and less so, wine and liquor), a 
certain style of food (fish and chips, shepherd's pie, bangers and mash...), 
enjoy (and cultivate) a certain kind of camaraderie which is different than a 
bar, restaurant, fast food place or biergarten and sometimes even offer lodging 
as "the best public house for twenty miles."  There are often darts or snooker, 
a bar to sit at as well as booths and tables and occasionally a more-outdoor 
area if the weather is nice.  The emphasis is on community, beer, relaxing with 
friends, food, friendly gaming (darts, snooker...), beer and sharing a few 
jokes with your mates (in roughly that order).

In the USA (I'm speaking of Northern California, though in larger cities across 
the country I find the following largely true), we DO have such establishments, 
which are and should be tagged amenity=pub.  Often but not always, they are 
trying to recreate the spirit and atmosphere of a British pub, perhaps with 
Union Jack flags and other decorations or amenities (e.g. dartboards) 
distinctly intended to give that "pub feeling."  Other times it will be a place 
like a craft brewery that has a pub feeling, so then it gets tagged pub.  Other 
times, a craft brewery correctly gets tagged restaurant.  However, I have 
tagged a place which is a craft brewery as a biergarten as it has a large 
outdoor area decorated with plants and features long tables for convivial 
seating and drinking.  Of course, bars are bars, restaurants are restaurants 
and fast food is fast food.  I don't mean to sound flippant, but those last 
three always seem to fit without ambiguity.  If it leans towards pub (even in 
the USA, or anywhere for that matter), tag it pub.  Same for biergarten if 
biergarten.

So, the USA truly DOES have pubs, especially as they attempt to (or do) 
recreate the atmosphere of a genuine British pub.  If it primarily serves beer 
(and also food), CONSIDER tagging it pub, but use biergarten if the specifics 
allow, or restaurant if it just doesn't "rise" to being a "real" pub.

We can also help with more specific tagging like cuisine=* and such.

SteveA
California
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us