Re: [Talk-us] FW: [osm-professional] Regional Street Centerline Solution - Minneapolis- St. Paul metro area - RFP

[Apollinaris Schoell]

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Apollinaris Schoell 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> the way osm works is so different that this doesn't make much sense. a DB
>> where anyone at any time can modify, delete data will require constant
>> tracking for which they will definitely need their own db. So why even
>> bother with osm at all. using the osm toolchain is an option which can make
>> sense. then all kinds of extensions like limited access for can be
>> implemented.
>
>
> Part of the point I was trying to make was that if our response to requests
> like this is always something along the lines of "the way OSM works is
> different so it doesn't make much sense", then maybe we're doing something
> wrong. Who will use our data (beyond plopping OpenLayers down and using OSM
> tiles) if there are no tools to allow it to work with outside entities?
>

the whole point of starting osm was to do things different. to allow editing
for non GIS folks, make new things possible.
If someone needs traditional GIS then use traditional GIS. They want shape
import and shape export. Any GIS system does this out of the box.
if osm provides more or better data there will be users for it. users will
combine public data from other sources and osm data. I see absolute no
reason to dump all public data to osm just because it exists, maintain an
external version control and do a conversion back to traditional GIS.
as soon as data is exported from osm it is tainted with the license and will
never be of much us for such projects.
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Re: [Talk-us] FW: [osm-professional] Regional Street Centerline Solution - Minneapolis- St. Paul metro area - RFP

[Ian Dees]

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:

>
> the way osm works is so different that this doesn't make much sense. a DB
> where anyone at any time can modify, delete data will require constant
> tracking for which they will definitely need their own db. So why even
> bother with osm at all. using the osm toolchain is an option which can make
> sense. then all kinds of extensions like limited access for can be
> implemented.


Part of the point I was trying to make was that if our response to requests
like this is always something along the lines of "the way OSM works is
different so it doesn't make much sense", then maybe we're doing something
wrong. Who will use our data (beyond plopping OpenLayers down and using OSM
tiles) if there are no tools to allow it to work with outside entities?
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Re: [Talk-us] FW: [osm-professional] Regional Street Centerline Solution - Minneapolis- St. Paul metro area - RFP

[Apollinaris Schoell]

On 13 Jul 2010, at 6:34 , Ian Dees wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:39 AM, McGuire, Matthew 
>  wrote:
>  
> 
> For example:
> - The proposal requires unique, persistent IDs for landmarks/points of 
> interest. OSM does not have an accepted way of storing persistent IDs.

there is a wikipedia project trying to achieve this. As far as I understand 
they try to do some local search and pattern match of tags. But there is no way 
to get persistent ID. A POI node can be changed to to a way or relation 
whenever better knowledge allows to do this.

> - Addressing information (even if it is address ranges) is a necessity. 
> Anything we can do to make entering address information easier and more 
> interesting would increase the usefulness of OSM for a much wider range of 
> people.

this is a lot of work and given that Tiger offers address interpolation already 
there is not so much incentive to do this. building an address DB based on 
Tiger provides a consistent quality but anything in osm will vary widely.   In 
the long term individual address data will be useful for osm. But this is a 
huge project and will need 10-100x more active mappers at least. some counties 
or cities  may provide such data. Then we can for sure import it. 

> - Updates and changes that are accepted into and created from the dataset 
> need to be stored somehow in a "status database". This sounds a lot like our 
> history page, but the history page is full of changesets that don't have 
> changes in the region. As has been discussed before, a tool to view a "real" 
> history for an area would be useful.

should be easy to implement by parsing minutely/hourly diffs. the history page 
requires queries to the main DB and if someone starts to do heavy access they 
might get blocked by the admins

> 
> Having said that, does anyone want to work with me on a proposal, even if it 
> only ends up giving us feedback on our data from a "real" external group?
> 

the way osm works is so different that this doesn't make much sense. a DB where 
anyone at any time can modify, delete data will require constant tracking for 
which they will definitely need their own db. So why even bother with osm at 
all. using the osm toolchain is an option which can make sense. then all kinds 
of extensions like limited access for can be implemented.



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Re: [Talk-us] FW: [osm-professional] Regional Street Centerline Solution - Minneapolis- St. Paul metro area - RFP

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:39 AM, McGuire, Matthew <
matt.mcgu...@metc.state.mn.us> wrote:

>
>
> To who may concern in the OSM community (*please excuse any double
> postings*).
>
>
>
> The OSM community is encouraged to consider offering a proposal in response
> to the RFP proposed at
> http://www.metrocouncil.org/doing_business/contracting/1259541.pdf.  The
> geographic extent to the seven-county, Minneapolis St. Paul metropolitan
> area and that of the 20+ adjoining counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin.
>
>
> Hi talk-us: For those of you who might have skipped over this simply
because it seems difficult to do, I ask that you at least skim over the
sections in Exhibit 1 of the PDF. As OSM gets more attention from groups
interested in using it, it's important to realize that the things requested
in this PDF aren't all that crazy and probably would make for a good source
of ideas for improvements to OSM's infrastructure.

For example:
- The proposal requires unique, persistent IDs for landmarks/points of
interest. OSM does not have an accepted way of storing persistent IDs.
- Addressing information (even if it is address ranges) is a necessity.
Anything we can do to make entering address information easier and more
interesting would increase the usefulness of OSM for a much wider range of
people.
- Updates and changes that are accepted into and created from the dataset
need to be stored somehow in a "status database". This sounds a lot like our
history page, but the history page is full of changesets that don't have
changes in the region. As has been discussed before, a tool to view a "real"
history for an area would be useful.

Having said that, does anyone want to work with me on a proposal, even if it
only ends up giving us feedback on our data from a "real" external group?
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[Talk-us] FW: [osm-professional] Regional Street Centerline Solution - Minneapolis- St. Paul metro area - RFP

[McGuire, Matthew]

To who may concern in the OSM community (please excuse any double postings).

The OSM community is encouraged to consider offering a proposal in response to 
the RFP proposed at 
http://www.metrocouncil.org/doing_business/contracting/1259541.pdf.  The 
geographic extent to the seven-county, Minneapolis St. Paul metropolitan area 
and that of the 20+ adjoining counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

Respectfully,

Randall L. Johnson, AICP
MetroGIS Staff Coordinator
Metropolitan Council
390 Robert Street North
St. Paul, Minnesota 55101

Phone: 651-602-1638
Email: randy.john...@metc.state.mn.us

website-general: www.metrogis.org
website-data: www.datafinder.org
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